Return-Path: Received: from rly-md10.mx.aol.com (rly-md10.mail.aol.com [172.20.29.148]) by air-md04.mail.aol.com (v123.3) with ESMTP id MAILINMD043-93049a897201bf; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:45:20 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-md10.mx.aol.com (v123.3) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMD108-93049a897201bf; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:45:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1LdEEM-0003Gi-SO for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:43:06 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1LdEEM-0003GZ-1h for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:43:06 +0000 Received: from blu0-omc1-s30.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.41]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LdEE8-0005cU-5f for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:43:06 +0000 Received: from BLU146-W37 ([65.55.116.7]) by blu0-omc1-s30.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:42:39 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [117.12.236.82] From: Laurence BY3A-KL1X China To: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:42:38 -0900 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <54FE5A0020614CE8B5E3718965EB957F@DR2> References: <4A11BD1B67394BDD9B3001D8F176B76F@DR2> <001001c99931$cd41ab50$8d01a8c0@JAYDELL> <54FE5A0020614CE8B5E3718965EB957F@DR2> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2009 01:42:39.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[D6C70490:01C99945] X-Karma: unknown: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_25ecebf6-c4be-43ef-a6d5-e10fc00bca96_" Subject: RE: LF: Re: Re: Re: LF Antennas - back to basics X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --_25ecebf6-c4be-43ef-a6d5-e10fc00bca96_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed some of the web sites still have links to my old email account the= re in Okie Heres the new ones for the loop for info.. =20 http://kl1x.com/loop1500.jpg http://kl1x.com/house.jpg =20 > From: dave.riley3@verizon.net > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:10:27 -0500 > Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: LF Antennas - back to basics >=20 > > Dave > > > > If you believe this I have a bridge you might be interested in=20 > > purchasing... > > > > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 >=20 >=20 >=20 > No thanks, I have enuf worms for fishing... >=20 > Besides, I'm lazy and one run of wire outperforms my messy attempts @=20 > loading the trees with HV wires that detune with humidity... >=20 > We installed a short flat top on the Sea Venture ( WJMV ) and I could tell= =20 > you what the relative humidity was by the antenna current... > Some dielectric measuring device, eh?? >=20 > 10A into the ground radial common point is power wasted that could have be= en=20 > released into the air... > I'm talking about my crummy ground conductivity here ( silica sand ), not=20= on=20 > a ship or @ a salt water location... >=20 > I think!! >=20 > What bridge?? An RF one?? >=20 > Dave >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:19 PM > Subject: LF: Re: Re: LF Antennas - back to basics >=20 >=20 > >> No wasted power going into and out of the ground... > > > > Dave > > > > If you believe this I have a bridge you might be interested in=20 > > purchasing... > > > > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "dave.riley3" > > To: ; > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:53 AM > > Subject: LF: Re: LF Antennas - back to basics > > > > > >> Glad you asked, Andy... Hope this one makes it past the spam filter.... > >> > >> Back in the commercial AM transmitter biz days I buried miles of extra=20 > >> copper in to poor conductivity soil and gained little or nothing. > >> Then came Bill Ashloop who proved that a small transmit loop can do qui= te=20 > >> well. > >> http://www.wireless.org.uk/loopy.htm > >> http://www.w1tag.com/XESANT.htm > >> > >> So I surveryed the back yard which sits on very poor conductivity soil=20 > >> and therefore makes a loop appear to me more in free space and here are= =20 > >> the advantages that I have found to date: > >> > >> No high voltage wire ends to start tree fires. No wasted power going in= to=20 > >> and out of the ground... > >> > >> Much less wire used in a LOOP transmit antenna. This #4 stranded HV wir= e=20 > >> rests inside of 100' sections of garden hose and is hoisted into trees=20 > >> with help of compound bow and pull line. > >> > >> No top loading, no radials, much less noise on RX, E-Z to tune and=20 > >> weather does not affect the tuning much such as from rain or snow, and=20= it=20 > >> acts like a good vertical regardless of being much simpler. > >> > >> As for the CONS, well I just don't think of any... Somebody?? > >> > >> It works very well from 600M to 6M and is the only real antenna that I=20 > >> still have. > >> > >> Various feeds as noted below will let you tune it down to SAQ@17kc whic= h=20 > >> I always hear and also makes for superb DX on 6M in 'some directions'. > >> > >> ref: http://www.radiocom.net/600M/LOOP109.jpg > >> > >> Wish I had a El-Nec printout but can't seem to fit this version in to i= t. > >> > >> QSL SURE VIA E-MAIL > >> 090226 0406 1 -29 0.0 0.503869 G4JNT IO90 23 > >> 090226 0610 3 -29 0.0 0.503869 G4JNT IO90 23 > >> > >> Have a quiet night and TNX from Dave @ WD2XSH/17 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message -----=20 > >> From: "Andy Talbot" > >> To: > >> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:16 AM > >> Subject: LF: LF Antennas - back to basics > >> > >> > >>> Having now been encouraged by being decoded now by at least two US > >>> stations, was wondering how much improvement in efficiency I could > >>> scrape out of my existing antenna. It is a Marconi Tee, the vertical > >>> element consisting of three wires from the base tapering to 200mm > >>> spacing at the top. There it is attached to the centre of a a > >>> capacity hat 15m long and 200mm wide made of three parallel wires. > >>> > >>> The ground system is a bit haphazard in my 7m wide by 12m long garden, > >>> with about 4 wires meeting at the base of the antenna meandering > >>> around the garden, starting off in different directions from teh base. > >>> They are all connected to substantial ground rods in heavy clay at > >>> their far points, a with a few randomly spaced rods in between (I used > >>> several 1m lengths of 15mm water pipe as well as proper rods - there > >>> is probably about 9 or 10 rods in total, mostly 1 - 2m in length - > >>> can't remember that far back! Some of the earth conductors were also > >>> bonded to the house wiring by a couple of substantial straps, and even > >>> inside the house I added more straps at strategic places. I also > >>> ensured there was a good fat cable run directly under as much of the > >>> capacity hat as possible. As a test, disconnecting the PME earthing > >>> bond and measuring the DC resistance between my total set of > >>> connections and the incoming conductor ground/neutral point, the value > >>> was a pretty consistent 3 ohms. Haven't done this test for a few > >>> years, but at the last check it was still of this order. > >>> > >>> Back in the 73kHz days a number of (mostly big!) stations were > >>> surprised my signal was as strong as it was for probably the smallest > >>> antenna in use then; G3LDO put it down to the fact I had concentrated > >>> plenty of earthing wire to run directly under the top-hat. > >>> > >>> But, its all 14 years old, still OK, but hopefully there's a wealth > >>> of experience now, and I wonder if there are obvious improvements that > >>> could be made: > >>> > >>> Firstly, bearing in mind there is no scope whatsoever to raise one end > >>> of the capacity hat which is defined by the apex of the house roof, > >>> and the other end would also need some major sugery to raise its heigh > >>> substantially, that only leaves the middle, ie the height of the > >>> actual radiator. It wouldn't be too difficult to raise this to 10m > >>> or even more with a fibreglass pole, but will I be throwing away all > >>> the advantage by having the top-hat drooping down to 7m? > >>> > >>> Secondly, pictures of other peoples antennas aften show a substantial > >>> grounding plate immediately under and around the antenna base. Just > >>> how far out is is worth going with a really substantial base. I > >>> could cut more conductors into the ground; while the ground is still > >>> is still soggy in March may be a good time to do this. > >>> > >>> Any ideas please ...? > >>> > >>> > >>> Andy G4JNT > >>> www.g4jnt.com > >>> > >> > >=20 >=20 >=20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Hotmail=AE:=85more than just e-mail.=20 http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explo= re_022009=3D --_25ecebf6-c4be-43ef-a6d5-e10fc00bca96_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed some of the web sites still have links to my old email accoun= t there in Okie
Heres the new ones for the loop for info..
 
http://kl1x.com/loop1500.jpg
 http://kl1x.com/house.jpg
 
> From: dave.riley3@verizon.net
> To: rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org
> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:10:27 -0500
> Subject: LF:= Re: Re: Re: LF Antennas - back to basics
>
> > Dave
>= >
> > If you believe this I have a bridge you might be interest= ed in
> > purchasing...
> >
> > Jay W1VD WD2XNS=20= WE2XGR/2
>
>
>
> No thanks, I have enuf worms for= fishing...
>
> Besides, I'm lazy and one run of wire outperfor= ms my messy attempts @
> loading the trees with HV wires that detune=20= with humidity...
>
> We installed a short flat top on the Sea V= enture ( WJMV ) and I could tell
> you what the relative humidity was= by the antenna current...
> Some dielectric measuring device, eh??>
> 10A into the ground radial common point is power wasted that=20= could have been
> released into the air...
> I'm talking about=20= my crummy ground conductivity here ( silica sand ), not on
> a ship o= r @ a salt water location...
>
> I think!!
>
> Wha= t bridge?? An RF one??
>
> Dave
>
>
>
&= gt; ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jrusgrove@comcast.net>= ;
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Sent: Friday, Feb= ruary 27, 2009 6:19 PM
> Subject: LF: Re: Re: LF Antennas - back to ba= sics
>
>
> >> No wasted power going into and out o= f the ground...
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > If=20= you believe this I have a bridge you might be interested in
> > pu= rchasing...
> >
> > Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2
> ><= BR>> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dave.riley3"=20= <dave.riley3@verizon.net>
> > To: <rsgb_lf_group@blackshee= p.org>; <andy.g4jnt@googlemail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, Fe= bruary 26, 2009 11:53 AM
> > Subject: LF: Re: LF Antennas - back to= basics
> >
> >
> >> Glad you asked, Andy... H= ope this one makes it past the spam filter...
> >>
> >&= gt; Back in the commercial AM transmitter biz days I buried miles of extra <= BR>> >> copper in to poor conductivity soil and gained little or no= thing.
> >> Then came Bill Ashloop who proved that a small trans= mit loop can do quite
> >> well.
> >> http://www.wi= reless.org.uk/loopy.htm
> >> http://www.w1tag.com/XESANT.htm
= > >>
> >> So I surveryed the back yard which sits on ve= ry poor conductivity soil
> >> and therefore makes a loop appea= r to me more in free space and here are
> >> the advantages tha= t I have found to date:
> >>
> >> No high voltage wi= re ends to start tree fires. No wasted power going into
> >> an= d out of the ground...
> >>
> >> Much less wire used= in a LOOP transmit antenna. This #4 stranded HV wire
> >> rest= s inside of 100' sections of garden hose and is hoisted into trees
>=20= >> with help of compound bow and pull line.
> >>
> &= gt;> No top loading, no radials, much less noise on RX, E-Z to tune and <= BR>> >> weather does not affect the tuning much such as from rain o= r snow, and it
> >> acts like a good vertical regardless of bei= ng much simpler.
> >>
> >> As for the CONS, well I j= ust don't think of any... Somebody??
> >>
> >> It wo= rks very well from 600M to 6M and is the only real antenna that I
> &= gt;> still have.
> >>
> >> Various feeds as noted= below will let you tune it down to SAQ@17kc which
> >> I alway= s hear and also makes for superb DX on 6M in 'some directions'.
> >= >
> >> ref: http://www.radiocom.net/600M/LOOP109.jpg
>=20= >>
> >> Wish I had a El-Nec printout but can't seem to fit= this version in to it.
> >>
> >> QSL SURE VIA E-MAI= L
> >> 090226 0406 1 -29 0.0 0.503869 G4JNT IO90 23
> >= > 090226 0610 3 -29 0.0 0.503869 G4JNT IO90 23
> >>
> &= gt;> Have a quiet night and TNX from Dave @ WD2XSH/17
> >>> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> &g= t;>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Mes= sage -----
> >> From: "Andy Talbot" <andy.g4jnt@googlemail.c= om>
> >> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> >= ;> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:16 AM
> >> Subject: L= F: LF Antennas - back to basics
> >>
> >>
> &g= t;>> Having now been encouraged by being decoded now by at least two U= S
> >>> stations, was wondering how much improvement in effic= iency I could
> >>> scrape out of my existing antenna. It is=20= a Marconi Tee, the vertical
> >>> element consisting of three= wires from the base tapering to 200mm
> >>> spacing at the t= op. There it is attached to the centre of a a
> >>> capacity=20= hat 15m long and 200mm wide made of three parallel wires.
> >>&g= t;
> >>> The ground system is a bit haphazard in my 7m wide b= y 12m long garden,
> >>> with about 4 wires meeting at the ba= se of the antenna meandering
> >>> around the garden, startin= g off in different directions from teh base.
> >>> They are a= ll connected to substantial ground rods in heavy clay at
> >>>= ; their far points, a with a few randomly spaced rods in between (I used
= > >>> several 1m lengths of 15mm water pipe as well as proper ro= ds - there
> >>> is probably about 9 or 10 rods in total, mos= tly 1 - 2m in length -
> >>> can't remember that far back! So= me of the earth conductors were also
> >>> bonded to the hous= e wiring by a couple of substantial straps, and even
> >>> in= side the house I added more straps at strategic places. I also
> >&= gt;> ensured there was a good fat cable run directly under as much of the=
> >>> capacity hat as possible. As a test, disconnecting the= PME earthing
> >>> bond and measuring the DC resistance betw= een my total set of
> >>> connections and the incoming conduc= tor ground/neutral point, the value
> >>> was a pretty consis= tent 3 ohms. Haven't done this test for a few
> >>> years, bu= t at the last check it was still of this order.
> >>>
>= >>> Back in the 73kHz days a number of (mostly big!) stations were=
> >>> surprised my signal was as strong as it was for probab= ly the smallest
> >>> antenna in use then; G3LDO put it down=20= to the fact I had concentrated
> >>> plenty of earthing wire=20= to run directly under the top-hat.
> >>>
> >>>= But, its all 14 years old, still OK, but hopefully there's a wealth
>= >>> of experience now, and I wonder if there are obvious improveme= nts that
> >>> could be made:
> >>>
> &g= t;>> Firstly, bearing in mind there is no scope whatsoever to raise on= e end
> >>> of the capacity hat which is defined by the apex=20= of the house roof,
> >>> and the other end would also need so= me major sugery to raise its heigh
> >>> substantially, that=20= only leaves the middle, ie the height of the
> >>> actual rad= iator. It wouldn't be too difficult to raise this to 10m
> >>>= ; or even more with a fibreglass pole, but will I be throwing away all
&g= t; >>> the advantage by having the top-hat drooping down to 7m?
= > >>>
> >>> Secondly, pictures of other peoples a= ntennas aften show a substantial
> >>> grounding plate immedi= ately under and around the antenna base. Just
> >>> how far o= ut is is worth going with a really substantial base. I
> >>>=20= could cut more conductors into the ground; while the ground is still
>= >>> is still soggy in March may be a good time to do this.
>= >>>
> >>> Any ideas please ...?
> >>>= ;
> >>>
> >>> Andy G4JNT
> >>>=20= www.g4jnt.com
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >

Windows Live=99 Hotmail=AE:=85more than just e-mail.=20= Check it out. =3D --_25ecebf6-c4be-43ef-a6d5-e10fc00bca96_--