Return-Path: Received: from rly-dd10.mx.aol.com (rly-dd10.mail.aol.com [172.19.141.157]) by air-dd07.mail.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDD073-ba04960fd6b8; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:18:38 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-dd10.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDD102-ba04960fd6b8; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:18:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1LJXXa-0004oe-Pi for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:17:34 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1LJXXZ-0004oV-Gk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:17:33 +0000 Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LJXXX-0000cY-S8 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:17:33 +0000 Received: from G4gvw@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id l.ca8.3e58af4f (34909) for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2009 13:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.140]) by cia-da02.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIADA026-5c4a4960fd2a19; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:17:21 -0500 Received: from mblk-d15 (mblk-d15.mblk.aol.com [205.188.149.7]) by smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA018-5c4a4960fd2a19; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:17:14 -0500 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:17:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: <900266.70866.qm@web28104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: g4gvw@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 40627-STANDARD Received: from 92.1.230.132 by mblk-d15.sysops.aol.com (205.188.149.7) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:17:14 -0500 Message-Id: <8CB3CAFCD1F390E-458-18@mblk-d15.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,FORGED_AOL_TAGS=0.281,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_TAG_EXIST_TBODY=0.126,NO_REAL_NAME=0.55,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RE: Re: RE: QRS 240 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB3CAFCD8CE4DE_458_2E_mblk-d15.sysops.aol.com" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_AOL_TAGS,HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,NO_COST, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ----------MB_8CB3CAFCD8CE4DE_458_2E_mblk-d15.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi All, I think Mal was very nearly there with a solution to thse problems(?) in sug= gesting operation after midnight (or similar). There might be merit in accep= ting that all of the experimental modes AND the established modes are valid=20= for the purposes of "experimentation". Acceptance of this together with a vo= luntary "bandplan" that was as much TIME based as mode/frequency based could= be a sensible way forward. "TIME" slots could rotate to allow people to "ex= periment" at different periods of the 24 hour cycle with certain periods set= aside as "free-for-all". One would, therefore, also be allowing for experim= entation under current conditions for those wishing to determine the QRM-bus= ting (or otherwise) qualities of the various modes. A "Battle-Royal" is not=20= the most adult way to start off a new year and neither is it a scientific me= thod that would impress Ofcom or any other body of professionals. My "threepennerth" for what it's worth (hopefully more than 3 pence worth de= spite our blighted currency hi hi) 73 de Pat G4GVW =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:44 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RE: Re: RE: QRS 240 Here Here Mal =C2=A0 I wonder how many of these "Hi Tech" mode stations live within line of sight= =C2=A0of another station then I think this BW hungry spread spectrum stuff w= ould be a nightmare to that local station? Especially running as an inane be= acon which undoubtedly will f ollow. =C2=A0 I have two 600m stations with in 8miles line of sight and another 13miles ov= er open country from me their CW is phenominally strong, a signal like Olivi= a 8/250 would obliorate the band for me. And for what? I asked for Morse on/off keying and very narrow FSK in my NoV application. D= id I miss something, like asking to use DSB? Its a 3 kc/s alloction for CS! =C2=A0 Mal you've got my vote and probably the Vote of the silent majority on the B= and. =C2=A0 End of RANT!! =C2=A0 73es HNY to all LF petefmt --- On Sun, 4/1/09, mal hamilton wrote: From: mal hamilton Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: RE: QRS 240 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 10:10 AM No change Gary, in fact I sent an amateur 2 valve bases a while back to get=20= him going on 137 khz. If you read my emails carefully all=C2=A0 that I am saying is that to date a= ll modes considered there has has been no improvement over normal CW or QRS=20= and very economical with bandwidth and signal transfer between stations. =C2=A0 I have no objection to any mode being used as long as it does not swamp the=20= band to the detriment of other band users. This past couple of nights one th= ird of the available band of 3 khz has been occupied by olivia plus other da= ta modes. ie 3 transmissions running parallel, this I do object to especiall= y when I was having a QSO with G3XIZ and almost swamped o ut, however I do have good selectivity and did manage but I think XIZ and hi= s experimental DC receiver was having a hard time. A data transmission or an= y other mode using around 200 hz bandwidth would be acceptable most of the t= ime. To be reasonable I have one suggestion. If someone is compelled to use a 1 k= hz wide mode then do it after say midnight for a few hours.=20 This reflecter has a big audicence and I get a considerable amounnt of priva= te emails agreeing with observations that I am making, I also get a few that= disagree. =C2=A0 As regards helping others this is going on all the time, and I frequently re= ply to requests for advice with all=C2=A0 aspects of LF and MF=C2=A0projects= . I also get help, recently as a=C2=A0 result of a discussion about preamps tw= o other amateurs reading the=C2=A0mail sent=C2=A0me the required chips at no= cost and likewise I do the same thing. =C2=A0 Most radio amateurs on here do discuss or argue their=C2=A0point in a civili= sed manner but=C2=A0you must have noticed how HOSTILE or ABUSIVE some get wh= en their opinin=C2=A0differs from others. They lose ther plot go off at a ta= ngent and start=C2=A0 attacking the individual putting forward a point of vi= ew. =C2=A0 I am not against black boxes for certain applications=C2=A0and have used the= m in the past ie PK232 and KAM., computer systems sound cards with the appro= priate software. I have a NOV for BBS operations GB7KEV and shifted the east= coast main line mail for several years int o Scotland and beyond using a V/UHF node network and gateway also on HF for=20= worldwide mail exchanges. Main modes PACKET on V/UHF and Amtor/pactor on HF. This business has almost gone now with the advent of Internet access for mai= l and traffic exchanges. The black box=C2=A0is ideal for the mass transfer o= f messages which would be a chore on CW. I hope you now understand my point of view. 73 gl and HNY de Mal/G3KEV =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gary - G4WGT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: LF: RE: Re: RE: QRS 240 Mal, =C2=A0 I admit, not nearly as many as you. =C2=A0 But why do you keep criticising what others do. It is as if they don=E2=80= =99t do it your way it isn=E2=80=99t correct. =C2=A0 I would be much nicer to advise & help others, don=E2=80=99t you think? =C2=A0 I remember when I first came on 136KHz you did help me & it was good advice,= I appreciated it, but your attitude seems to have changed, why? =C2=A0 Gary =E2=80=93 G4WGT. =C2=A0 From: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org ] On Behalf Of mal hamilton Sent: 03 January 2009 20:48 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: RE: QRS 240 =C2=A0 29 countries worked on 137 all on cw. What is your score. g3kev =C2=A0 ----- Original=3D2 0Message -----=20 From: Gary - G4WGT=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:28 PM Subject: LF: RE: QRS 240 =C2=A0 LF, =C2=A0 Oh my god, he=E2=80=99s doing it on 136KHz now !!! =C2=A0 Gary - G4WGT. =C2=A0 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacks= heep.org ] On Behalf Of mal hamilton Sent: 03 January 2009 20:22 To: rsgb Subject: LF: QRS 240 =C2=A0 Its hard to believe that someone on 137 is sending at qrs240 sec dot !!!.Thi= nk how long this would take for a QSO, surprisingly there is no QSB on rhe c= arrier. I cannot wait for an ID. I could read it at qrs 1 g3kev =C2=A0 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:= 10 PM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:= 10 PM =20 =20 ________________________________________________________________________ AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move.=20= Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. ----------MB_8CB3CAFCD8CE4DE_458_2E_mblk-d15.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Hi All,
I think Mal was very nearly there with a solution to thse problems(?) in sug= gesting operation after midnight (or similar). There might be merit in accep= ting that all of the experimental modes AND the established modes are valid=20= for the purposes of "experimentation". Acceptance of this together with a vo= luntary "bandplan" that was as much TIME based as mode/frequency based could= be a sensible way forward. "TIME" slots could rotate to allow people to "ex= periment" at different periods of the 24 hour cycle with certain periods set= aside as "free-for-all". One would, therefore, also be allowing for experim= entation under current conditions for those wishing to determine the QRM-bus= ting (or otherwise) qualities of the various modes. A "Battle-Royal" is not=20= the most adult way to start off a new year and neither is it a scientific me= thod that would impress Ofcom or any other body of professionals.

My "threepennerth" for what it's worth (hopefully more than 3 pence worth de= spite our blighted currency hi hi)

73 de Pat G4GVW


-----Original Message-----
From: M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:44
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RE: Re: RE: QRS 240

Here Here Mal
 
I wonder how many of these "Hi Tech" mode stations live within line of=20= sight of another station then I think this BW hungry spread spectrum st= uff would be a nightmare to that local station? Especially running as an ina= ne beacon which undoubtedly will follow.
 
I have two 600m stations with in 8miles line of sight and another 13mil= es over open country from me their CW is phenominally strong, a signal like=20= Olivia 8/250 would obliorate the band for me. And for what?
I asked for Morse on/off keying and very narrow FSK in my NoV applicati= on. Did I miss something, like asking to use DSB? Its a 3 kc/s alloction for= CS!
 
Mal you've got my vote and probably the Vote of the silent majority on=20= the Band.
 
End of RANT!!
 
73es HNY to all LF petefmt

--- On Sun, 4/1/09, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote:
From: mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>
Subject: LF: Re: RE: Re: RE: QRS 240
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep= .org
Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 10:10 AM

No change Gary, in fact I sent an amate= ur 2 valve bases a while back to get him going on 137 khz.
If you read my ema ils carefully all  that I am saying is that to date all modes considere= d there has has been no improvement over normal CW or QRS and very economica= l with bandwidth and signal transfer between stations.
 
I have no objection to any mode being u= sed as long as it does not swamp the band to the detriment of other band use= rs. This past couple of nights one third of the available band of 3 khz has=20= been occupied by olivia plus other data modes. ie 3 transmissions running pa= rallel, this I do object to especially when I was having a QSO with G3XIZ an= d almost swamped out, however I do have good selectivity and did manage but=20= I think XIZ and his experimental DC receiver was having a hard time. A data=20= transmission or any other mode using around 200 hz bandwidth would be accept= able most of the time.
To be reasonable I have one suggestion.= If someone is compelled to use a 1 khz wide mode then do it after say midni= ght for a few hours.
This reflecter has a big audicence and=20= I get a considerable amounnt of private emails agreeing with observations th= at I am making, I also get a few that disagree.
 
As regards helping others this is going= on all the time, and I frequently reply to requests for advice with all&nbs= p ; aspects of LF and MF projects.
I also get help, recently as a  re= sult of a discussion about preamps two other amateurs reading the mail=20= sent me the required chips at no cost and likewise I do the same thing.=
 
Most radio amateurs on here do discuss=20= or argue their point in a civilised manner but you must have notic= ed how HOSTILE or ABUSIVE some get when their opinin differs from other= s. They lose ther plot go off at a tangent and start  attacking the ind= ividual putting forward a point of view.
 
I am not against black boxes for certai= n applications and have used them in the past ie PK232 and KAM., comput= er systems sound cards with the appropriate software. I have a NOV for BBS o= perations GB7KEV and shifted the east coast main line mail for several years= into Scotland and beyond using a V/UHF node network and gateway also on HF=20= for worldwide mail exchanges. Main modes PACKET on V/UHF and Amtor/pactor on= HF.
This business has almost gone now with=20= the advent of Internet access for mail and traffic exchanges. The black box&= nbsp;is ideal for the mass transfer of messages which would be a chore on CW= .
I hope you now understand my point of v= iew.
73 gl and HNY de Mal/G3KEV
 
 
----- Original Message -= ----
= From: Gary - G4WGT
Sent: Saturday, J= anuary 03, 2009 9:03 PM
Subject: LF: RE= : Re: RE: QRS 240

<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">Mal,
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">I admit, not nearly as many as you.
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">But why do you keep criticising what others do. It is as if they don= =E2=80=99t do it your way it isn=E2=80=99t correct.
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">I would be much nicer to a dvise & help others, don=E2=80=99t you think?
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">I remember when I first came on 136KHz you did help me & it was=20= good advice, I appreciated it, but your attitude seems to have changed, why?=
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">Gary =E2=80=93 G4WGT.
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
Fro= m: owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ] = On Behalf Of mal hamilton
Sent: 03 January 2009 20:48=
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: Re: RE: QRS 24= 0
 
29 countries worked on 137 all on cw. What= is your score.
g3kev
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent:<= /b> Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:28 PM
Subject: LF: RE: QRS 240
 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: b lue; font-family= : Arial;">LF,
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">Oh my god, he=E2=80=99s doing it on 136KHz now !!!
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;">Gary - G4WGT.
<= span style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 12pt; color: blue; font-family:=20= Arial;"> 
Fro= m: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= [mailto:owner- rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ] On Behalf Of mal hamilton
Sent: 03 January 2009 20:22=
To: rsgb
Subject: LF: QRS 240=
 
Its hard to believe that someone on 137 is= sending at qrs240 sec dot !!!.Think how long this would take for a QSO, sur= prisingly there is no QSB on rhe carrier. I cannot wait for an ID. I could r= ead it at qrs 1
g3kev
 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www= .avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Da te: 1/2/2009 1:10 PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www= .avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1872 - Release Date: 1/2/2009 1:= 10 PM

=20
AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the= move. Sign up=20= for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today.
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