Return-Path: Received: from rly-df10.mx.aol.com (rly-df10.mail.aol.com [172.19.156.23]) by air-df01.mail.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILINDF012-582494fcc071d3; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:19:35 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-df10.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.4) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINDF105-582494fcc071d3; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:19:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1LEoQV-00055o-CT for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:43 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1LEoQU-00055f-KU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:42 +0000 Received: from smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk ([195.188.213.5]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LEoQT-0001qV-E8 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:42 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.136] (helo=anti-virus01-07) by smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1LEoQS-0002iw-JB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:40 +0000 Received: from [92.235.33.173] (helo=p4) by asmtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1LEoQR-00024L-AE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:39 +0000 Message-ID: <774C34271D3E4E6A97F62E37532DF46D@p4> From: "Mark" To: References: <008701c9643c$e94f3f30$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> <17FA40F24C374952AFB1563EF6A75A07@p4> <00d401c9644b$19cb2bc0$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:18:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Karma: 0: X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.36,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: LF: Re: Re: Re: 500 Khz modes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01AA_01C96459.5485EDA0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_01AA_01C96459.5485EDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mal read YOUR licence=20 it was issued by Ofcom for normal people not ex Radio Officers. Ofcom are n= ot part of HM government. It does not refer to any definitions that may or may not appear in the 'Hand= book for Radio Officers' Early licences issued by the RA clearly state in the first paragraph, that=20= the licence is for self training in communication by wireless telegraphy. It= does not say Telegraphy, Telephony and data transmissions, because they are= all covered in accepted usage by the one term. In accordance with this, the term wireless telegraphy has been dropped from=20= the latest licence from Ofcom and replaced by 'radio telecommunications' pre= sumably because the old wording confused some people. The licence then speci= fies some of the modes allowed, including Morse telegraphy. section 1 (5)a When did Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 suddenly not apply to anything other t= han Morse code? perhaps you should read it...=20 Perhaps you alone are immune to prosecution should you decide to broadcast a= spoof mayday or similar on a marine voice radio, because of the clause that= refers to sending of such a message by wireless telegraphy. Perhaps you sho= uld be campaigning to clear the name of those already prosecuted for such of= fences, as they are clearly not guilty of an offence under this act. Technic= ally speaking even under the accepted definition of Telegraphy, voice commun= ications are exempt (unless they are specifically defined as wireless telegr= aphy by the act itself.. an no I haven't read it end to end!!!) There is no doubt that Wireless Telegraphy includes but is not limited to Mo= rse Code transmissions. This definition is accepted by the entire establishm= ent, the wider radio community and is enshrined in law. Where our UK licences refer to Wireless telegraph (actually I have not found= any references to Radio telegraphy) they mean all forms of radio communications.=20 You may consider yourself a good CW operator, you are probably a better CW o= perator than I am, but your attitude denies you the courtesy of being referr= ed to as Professional. I also did not mention Radio Officers, I said competent CW operators, though= to equate that with professional radio officers to the exclusion of all oth= ers is as far as I am concerned a rather narrow minded approach. I happen to have known a number of professional Radio Officers, and they wro= te down messages that they need to relay to others, and often don't bother o= therwise. One old gentleman in fact, in his employment, rarely wrote down the characte= rs he received. He would listen to CW in German and write it down in English= . By your definition he was not a professional Radio Officer.=20 You may write down all you receive but I know others don't. I don't, and wh= ilst I may not be in the same league as yourself, I am a good enough CW oper= ator to find that the majority of my QSOs are actually on CW. Thankyou for the lively debate, I have enjoyed it. I apologise if any others= consider it a waste of bandwidth. :<) Have a happy Christmas, a prosperous New Year and plenty of DX on your chose= n bands and modes Mark GM4ISM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mal hamilton=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: LF: Re: Re: 500 Khz modes Handbook published for Radio Officers and issued by HM government states c= learly what Radiotelegraphy means and Radiotelephony as far as they are conc= erned. Take you argument up with them, they issue the licence (OFCOM)) A professional Radio Officer DOES write down the messages he/her receives= , they are either hand written or taken on a typewriter to be forwarded to t= he appropriate destination person/persons. In some cases the telegraphy mess= age is printed directly onto a paper tape using an undulator.=20 Sorry Mark that you happen to be misguided on so many counts. De Mal/G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:19 PM Subject: LF: Re: 500 Khz modes Well said Mal Telegraphy Greek=20 Tele 'far-off' graph 'writing' Morse code actually is less 'telagraphy' as the end result does not by d= efault get written (by competent cw operators at any rate) Some definitions:- Concise Oxford English A system or device for transmitting messages from a distance. Webster's 1. Communicating at a distance by electric transmission over wire.=20 Wikipedia (referred to by Webster's) Telegraphy is the long distance transmission of written messages without= physical transport of letters. This definition includes recent forms of dat= a transmission such as fax, email, and computer networks in general. (A tele= graph is a machine for transmitting and receiving messages over long distanc= es, i.e. for telegraphy.) Radio telegraphy see above but omit wires seems to me that the generally accepted use of the term does not restric= t the user to Morse code I eagerly await the large increase in WSPT transmissions now that this i= s cleared up :<)) Mark GM4ISM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mal hamilton=20 To: rsgb=20 Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: LF: 500 Khz modes All MF=20 To put it briefly WRC07/Radio regulations 5.82A the spectrum between 4= 95 khz and 505 khz permits RADIOTELEGRAPHY only. I pointed this out in a previous message.=20 de Mal/G3KEV -------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 - Release Date: 12/21= /2008 3:08 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2= 008 2:34 PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 - Release Date: 12/21/200= 8 3:08 PM ------=_NextPart_000_01AA_01C96459.5485EDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mal read YOUR licence
it was issued by Ofcom for normal people no= t ex=20 Radio Officers.  Ofcom are not part of HM government.
It does not refer to any definition= s that=20 may or may not appear in the 'Handbook for Radio Officers'
Early licences issued by the RA  clear= ly state=20 in the first paragraph, that the licence is for self training in=20 communication by wireless telegraphy. It does not say Telegraphy, Telephony=20= and=20 data transmissions, because they are all covered in accepted usage by the on= e=20 term.
In accordance with this, the term wireless=20 telegraphy has been dropped from the latest licence from Ofcom and replaced=20= by=20 'radio telecommunications' presumably because the old wording confused some=20 people. The licence then specifies some of the modes allowed, including= =20 Morse telegraphy. section 1 (5)a
&= nbsp;
When did Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949=20= suddenly=20 not apply to anything other than Morse code? perhaps you should read it...=20
Perhaps you alone are immune to prosecution= should=20 you decide to broadcast a spoof mayday or similar on a marine voice radio,=20 because of the clause that refers to sending of such a message by wireless=20 telegraphy. Perhaps you should be campaigning to clear the name of those alr= eady=20 prosecuted for such offences, as they are clearly not guilty of an offence u= nder=20 this act. Technically speaking even under the accepted definition of Telegra= phy,=20 voice communications are exempt (unless they are specifically defined as=20 wireless telegraphy by the act itself.. an no I haven't read it end to=20 end!!!)
There is no doubt that Wireless Telegraphy=20= includes=20 but is not limited to Morse Code transmissions. This definition is accepted=20= by=20 the entire establishment, the wider radio community and is enshrined in= =20 law.
Where our UK licences refer to Wireless tel= egraph=20 (actually I have not found any references to Radio telegraphy)
they mean all forms of  radio communic= ations.=20
 
You may consider yourself a good CW operato= r, you=20 are probably a better CW operator than I am, but your attitude denies you th= e=20 courtesy of being referred to as Professional.
 
I also did not mention Radio Officers, I sa= id=20 competent CW operators, though to equate that with professional radio=20 officers to the exclusion of all others
is as far as I am concerned a rather n= arrow=20 minded approach.
I happen to have known a number of=20 professional Radio Officers, and they wrote down messages that they need to=20 relay to others, and often don't bother otherwise.
One old gentleman in fact, in his=20 employment, rarely wrote down the characters he received. He would list= en=20 to CW in German and write it down in English.
By your definition he was not a professiona= l Radio=20 Officer.
You may write down all you receive but I kn= ow=20 others don't.  I don't, and whilst I may not be in the same league as=20 yourself, I am a good enough CW operator to find that the majority of my QSO= s=20 are actually on CW.
 
Thankyou for the lively debate, I have enjo= yed it.=20 I apologise if any others consider it a waste of bandwidth. :<)
Have a happy Christmas, a prosperous New Ye= ar and=20 plenty of DX on your chosen bands and modes
Mark GM4ISM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
mal= =20 hamilton
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:3= 6=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: Re: 500 Khz modes<= /DIV>

Handbook published for Radio Officers and= issued=20 by HM government states clearly what Radiotelegraphy means and Radioteleph= ony=20 as far as they are concerned. Take you argument up with them, they issue t= he=20 licence (OFCOM))
A professional Radio Officer DOES&nb= sp;=20 write down the messages he/her receives, they are either hand written= or=20 taken on a typewriter to be forwarded to the appropriate destination=20 person/persons. In some cases the telegraphy message is printed direc= tly=20 onto a paper tape using an undulator.
Sorry Mark that you happen to be misguide= d on so=20 many counts.
 
De Mal/G3KEV
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2= :19=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: 500 Khz modes

Well said Mal
 
Telegraphy
Greek
Tele 'far-off'  graph =20 'writing'
Morse code actually is less 'telagraphy= ' as the=20 end result does not by default get written (by competent cw operato= rs=20 at any rate)
Some definitions:-
 
Concise Oxford English
A system or device for transmitting messages from a distance.
 
Webster's
1. Communicating at a distance by electric=20 transmission over wire.
 
Wikipedia (referred to by=20 Webster's)
Telegraphy is the long distance transmission of=20 written messages without physical transport of letters. This definition=20 includes recent forms of data transmission such as fax, email, and compu= ter=20 networks in general. (A telegraph is a machine for=20 transmitting and receiving messages over long distances, i.e. for=20 telegraphy.)
 
Radio telegraphy   see above=20= but omit=20 wires
 
seems to me that the generally accepted= use of=20 the term does not restrict the user to Morse code
I eagerly await the large increase in W= SPT=20 transmissions now that this is cleared up
 
:<))
Mark GM4ISM
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 mal=20 hamilton
To: rs= gb
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008= 1:55=20 PM
Subject: LF: 500 Khz modes

All MF
To put it briefly WRC07/Radio regulat= ions=20 5.82A the spectrum between 495 khz and 505 khz permits RADIOTELEGRAPHY= =20 only.
I pointed this out in a previous mess= age.=20
de Mal/G3KEV
 


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG=20= - http://www.avg.com
Version:= 8.0.176 /=20 Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 - Release Date: 12/21/2008 3:08=20 PM


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -=20 http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859=20= -=20 Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -=20 http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1860 -=20 Release Date: 12/21/2008 3:08 PM
------=_NextPart_000_01AA_01C96459.5485EDA0--