Return-Path: Received: from rly-ma02.mx.aol.com (rly-ma02.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.46]) by air-ma07.mail.aol.com (v121_r3.13) with ESMTP id MAILINMA072-88f48ff210f51; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:48:27 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-ma02.mx.aol.com (v121_r3.13) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMA021-88f48ff210f51; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:48:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Ksd7R-00023Q-5H for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:47:21 +0100 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Ksd7Q-00023H-Av for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:47:20 +0100 Received: from smtp810.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.70]) by relay3.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ksd7K-00058Z-Rh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:47:20 +0100 Received: (qmail 55843 invoked from network); 22 Oct 2008 12:47:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=vCROj79tqTOauhNeHnY7V6lNxa05ynYVoKxBhEXVoiMgPBid3cqsXYQqi/YJUmtiwzcsngaZgz+ueBmwjPHZEb/GcN6c5594Znl5xnRsyvVN0aD61lZC21bMIbPIFpMtXXcklszE80WVfRW3SgAqmCLf7SvM2iyYEIyzWqqA04w= ; Received: from unknown (HELO w4o8m9) (james.moritz@86.135.190.93 with login) by smtp810.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 2008 12:47:09 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: NZg0nHIVM1nbFXCz5RIiSnDOfg_XLjaa6upY8cMS2F80mGSfhILV5KExgsP0OMEBuKhNFIWmo576CKQVB6xHjjmQdq0jZC81PxgH_n5lHRA5rRe4wWkMjf1ryTliPW_xnwGUMxds_qTHspcLgRmNC1LrCdR_ X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.5.524 [270.6.21/1677]); Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:40:52 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c933bd$4ef22f60$4201a8c0@home> From: "James Moritz" To: Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:40:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.327 Subject: LF: Ferrites - why low frequency limit? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : post.thorcom.com ; SPF_helo = n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : btopenworld.com ; SPF_822_from = n Dear John, LF Group, There is no strict limit on the frequency range of a particular type of ferrite, rather there is an optimum frequency range depending on the application. All ferrites have losses that increase with frequency. At low frequency this is mainly due to magnetic hysteresis in the core, which results in a loss that rises with operating frequency at a given level of magnetic flux, and at high frequencies things like eddy currents and dielectric losses increase in significance too. The lower permeability ferrite materials tend to have lower overall loss in the magnetic core material in the LF/MF/HF range, but require more turns of wire to achieve a given inductance, or a particular maximum level of flux in the core, resulting in higher losses in the windings. So there is a trade-off, favouring high permeability materials at low frequency where the loss due to hysteresis is relatively low and the smaller number of turns needed is a benefit, and low permeability materials at higher frequency where fewer turns are required. Whether a material is suitable at a particular frequency depends a lot on what it is being used for. If one looks at the impedance of a particular winding, the core losses result in a resistive component that increases with frequency, and an inductance that is constant at low frequencies, but decreases rapidly at high frequencies. At very high frequencies, the resistive component may also reduce. So there comes a crossover point when the coil impedance becomes mostly resistive, and at higer frequencies still the overall impedance of the coil actually reduces (this is ignoring the effect of stray capacitance, which will also cause the impedance to reduce at frequencies above resonance). The crossover tends to occur at higher frequencies for lower permeability materials. For a signal transformer, one does not usually care too much about the resistive component, provided the overall winding impedance is high, which favours high permeability cores. For a high Q coil in a tuned circuit, one wants to minimise the resistive component as much as possible, which tends to favour low permeability cores. For noise supression, one wants to maintain a large impedance over a wide frequency range, and a resistive impedance is actually quite useful in damping out resonances. Here the upper limit is where the overall impedance starts to decrease. For power applications such as SMPSUs and transmitters, the trade-off becomes more complicated, because one also must consider flux density, temperature rise, size and cost of the core, the effect of a DC bias current, etc. So the reccomended frequency range of a ferrite material is really rather a vague notion. Nothing terrible happens at low frequencies, but the windings tend to get unmanageably large. At high frequencies, there comes a point where the losses are too high for the circuit requirements. But in both cases, the frequency limits will depend a lot on what the core is being used for. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU