Return-Path: Received: from rly-mg05.mx.aol.com (rly-mg05.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.111]) by air-mg03.mail.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILINMG032-a164898935b66; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:52:48 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-mg05.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMG058-a164898935b66; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:52:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1KQQgy-0006Pk-6E for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:51:28 +0100 Received: from [193.82.59.130] (helo=relay2.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1KQQgs-0006Pb-Mv for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:51:22 +0100 Received: from smtp-out-1.talktalk.net ([62.24.128.231] helo=smtp.talktalk.net) by relay2.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KQQgo-00079f-GB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 18:51:22 +0100 X-Path: TTSMTP Received: from unknown (HELO mal769a60aa920) ([78.144.146.208]) by smtp.talktalk.net with SMTP; 05 Aug 2008 18:48:41 +0100 Message-ID: <002f01c8f723$7fe095c0$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> From: "mal hamilton" To: References: <004a01c8f19b$3d370520$a402a8c0@Inspiron> <011925433193420FAA184FA6E7F8CDA9@DennisPC> <120FCD1BCEFD4733A70BB7E4DE695E1F@AGB> <847A2BA37D8C4C88BE7899AFE777998A@DennisPC> <4FEA55415CE3426391A1472DCA8FB59D@AGB> <001a01c8f658$771997a0$0301a8c0@mal769a60aa920> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:48:41 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,AWL=0.042,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C8F72B.E1624F70" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_helo : n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_822_from : n ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C8F72B.E1624F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rhetoric bad, Antenna arena worse, CW ? Considering today's pass marks at University is 30% is it any wonder the app= liance operator lacks ability to comprehend what is really going on. Since the radio amateur examination has been reduced to a tick test(multiple= choice) everyone is in with a chance, guess work, result an appliance opera= tor.=20 This is not only my opinion but lots of others, to whom I have spoken.=20 An earth spike is better than an ANTENNA !!!!!!!!!!!!! I have not heard any signals from from the EARTH man. If possible get a 1/4 wave antenna installed at a good height otherwise expe= ct poor results on MF. A match stick is a poor performer. G3KEV ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:41 AM Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV Contrary to Mesolithic belief the earth'ing arrangement for a modern co= mpact array is actually quite important , as the coupling to the earths ma= gnetoshphere is far better and most efficiently accomplished by a correctly=20= loaded and properly proportioned perpendicularly erect mono pole, than that=20= achievable, but a some what longer flaccid and regrettable lower sagging e= lement stretched possibly beyond its elastic limit wallowing in an obscenely= high ground capacity.=20 =20 Such pompous arrays when modelled with the appliance of science , reveal t= he ugly and un slightly truth that there entire efforts are directed skyward= s simply ensuring as in the proverbial , discharge to windward , ensuring=20= you simply get your own back . =20 The far more efficient and elegantly modelled short loaded vertical on the= other hand , can be demonstrated to meet the more modern criteria of . 'it= s not what you have its what you do with it that count's' a most modern an= d elegant stance.=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:35 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV If an Earth spike does more for a signal than an Antenna you have a seriou= s problem. The Earth spike is really the Antenna and the so called antenna i= s just by the way=20 G3KEV=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:43 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV Dennis, I'm in a state of flux at this end , having a big move round ,,which ha= s not gone to plan still operational on hf , but all the mf kit is in boxe= s at the moment , I can take a look , on 500 , with low power you will be be= tter sending very slow cw and checking on the grabbers , you should show at= Birmingham and later in the night at Shetland ... Shetland is a very strang= e place as there doesn't look to be any background noise . ... apart from t= he wind that occasionally removes the antenna ! Gary is also running a on l= ine 'grabber' he's about 60 miles north of Birmingham . you may shown there.= ..=20 Oddly , a good earth looks to do more for the signal than the Ae , any=20= pipes rods ect in the ground , use individual wires and bring them all back= to the same earth point , its not conductance that makes the difference is= ground capacity , the more the better , wires under the top of the ae will=20= add to the return path for the current... =20 The top loading coil, 40 turns of 30 amp wire on a coke bottle , (oth= ers may of used a cider flagon .... they know who they are) ... and i think=20= Gary favours a centre one, made a big improvement. Anything that increases t= he current in the vertical section of the system , don't bother with long l= ow wires , these just radiate vertically upwards.. the annoying thing is the station now works much better on top band and= 80 mtrs as a result of the mod's embodied for 500... could of done them 15=20= years ago=20 Q how are you generating fsk ? =20 Good luck=20 Graham From: DENNIS EASTERLING=20 Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 5:00 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV Graham Thanks for your e-mail and encouraging remarks. I have made a couple o= f test transmissions, but no comments so far. I am having to suspend ops f= or the present as my neighbour is having a nearby tree felled and I have low= ered my antenna just in case. 73 Dennis M0JXM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Graham=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 1:27 AM Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV Dennis, Don't worry about operation on vlf, I think you find the band acts mo= re like top band , with a well defined service area ~60/ 70 miles and a firs= t skip round 200/250 , I can see a trace at Birmingham with 500mW to my ante= nna , only real problem is the dreaded deep fade 'qsb' whic takes the signal= out 30 seconds up to 1 minuet + , which causes havoc with rtty , as you ha= ve no idea if the other station copied anything .... dont suppose you have a= mtor ? =20 I doubt you will cause any interference with those power levels , I r= an 20 watts to a inverted L 40 ft x 40 ft for a long time , which radiated=20= quite well , but after adding a top loading coil found it worked a lot bette= r , with 150 watts and a new variometer tuner , still didn't record any prob= lems .. Had more problems with the pc jamming the incoming signals and a funny= long life bulb that radiated a well spaced spectrum across the band ! chec= k out the pages on the google uk500khz web news group for links to the grab= bers etc .=20 73 's=20 Graham ..=20 G0NBD=20 From: DENNIS EASTERLING=20 Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:52 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV Hi Lee I have just got my NOV to operate on 500kHz, so will be dipping my toe= into the water from next week. I have not got any 138kHz experience and only obtained my full amateur= licence last May. On my application for the NOV, I provided a scale diagram of my own an= d immediate neighbour's properties, gave a brief description of the TX(home=20= brew), RX(Lowe HF-225) and antenna(T) that I intend to use and an estimate o= f my erp from the TANTENNA program on the internet (200mW). As I am using a= VFO, I use a counter to measure the frequency and also monitor transmission= s using the RX which has a digital readout. I also stated that I would cea= se transmissions until any complaint was satisfactorily resolverd, and menti= oned two nearby amateurs also working on 500kHz whose help and advice I coul= d seek. All the above seemed to work, so good luck on your application. The m= ore the merrier. 73 Dennis M0JXM ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Hudson=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: LF: 500KHz NoV Hi All, After reading through loads of stuff and monitoring the LF Group I'm= left with the decision of whether to start on 136 or 500KHz. 500KHz seems much easier to deal with from the outset, and hopefully= the NoV period will be extended further next year. However the NoV itself is the possible stumbling block in that it ap= pears that experience on 136KHz is a big plus that Ofcom appear to be lookin= g for, My question is, would I get away with applying for a NoV without fir= st being active on 136KHz, or has anyone already taken this route and been s= uccessful? 73, Lee M0LMH. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.7/1581 - Release Date: 7/30/2008 06= :56 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1587 - Release Date: 8/2/2008 17= :30 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1590 - Release Date: 8/4/2008 08= :09 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C8F72B.E1624F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rhetoric bad, Antenna arena worse, CW=20 ?
Considering today's pass marks at Universit= y is 30%=20 is it any wonder the appliance operator lacks ability to comprehend what is=20 really going on.
Since the radio amateur examination has bee= n=20 reduced to a tick test(multiple choice) everyone is in with a chance, guess=20 work, result an appliance operator.
This is not only my opinion but lots of oth= ers, to=20 whom I have spoken.
An  earth spike is better than an ANTE= NNA=20 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have not heard any signals from from the=20= EARTH=20 man.
If possible get a 1/4 wave antenna installe= d at a=20 good height otherwise expect poor results on MF. A match stick is a poor=20 performer.
G3KEV
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Graham
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:41= =20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV

Cont= rary=20 to  Mesolithic  belief the earth=92ing  arrangement for a modern compact array=20  is actually quite important= , as=20 the coupling to  the earths=20 magnetoshphere is far better and most efficiently accomplished by a correc= tly=20 loaded and properly proportioned perpendicularly erect mono pole, than tha= t=20 achievable, but a some what longer flaccid and regrettable lower  sagging  element stretched possibly beyond its=20 elastic limit wallowing in an obscenely high ground capacity.

=  

Such= pompous=20 arrays when modelled with the appliance of science , reveal the ugly and u= n=20 slightly truth that there entire efforts are directed skywards simply ensu= ring=20 as in the proverbial , discharge to = ;=20 windward ,  ensuring=20= you=20 simply get your own back .

=  

The=20= far more=20 efficient and elegantly modelled short loaded vertical on the other hand ,= can=20 be demonstrated to  meet the= more=20 modern criteria of . =91its not what you have its what you do  with it that count=92s=92  a most modern and elegant  stance.=20


Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV

If an Earth spike does more for a signal=20= than an=20 Antenna you have a serious problem. The Earth spike is really the Antenna=20= and=20 the so called antenna is just by the way
G3KEV
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 7:4= 3=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV

Dennis,
 
I'm in  a state of flux at this en= d ,=20 having a big move round ,,which has not gone to  plan  still=20 operational on hf , but all the mf kit is in boxes at the moment , I can= =20 take a look , on 500 , with low power you will be better sending very&nb= sp;=20 slow cw and checking on the grabbers , you should show at Birmingham=20 and later in the night at Shetland ... Shetland is a very strange p= lace=20 as there doesn't look to  be any background noise . ... apart=20= from=20 the wind that occasionally removes the antenna ! Gary is also  runn= ing=20 a on line 'grabber' he's about 60 miles north of Birmingham . you may sh= own=20 there...
 
Oddly , a good earth looks to  do=20= more for=20 the signal than the Ae , any pipes rods  ect in the ground , use=20 individual wires and bring them all back  to the same earth point ,= its=20 not conductance that makes the difference is ground capacity , the more=20= the=20 better , wires under the top of the ae will add  to  the retur= n=20 path for the current...  
 
 The top loading coil, 40  tu= rns of=20 30 amp wire  on a coke bottle , (others may of used a cider fl= agon=20 .... they know who they are) ... and i think Gary favours a centre=20= one,=20 made a big improvement. Anything that= =20 increases the current in the vertical section of the system , don't=20  bother with long low wires , these just radiate vertically=20 upwards..
the annoying thing is  the st= ation=20 now works much better on top band and 80 mtrs as a result of the mod's=20 embodied for 500... could of done them 15 years ago
 
Q how are you generating fsk ?=20  
 
Good luck
 
Graham
 
 
 
 

Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV

Graham
 
Thanks for your e-mail and encouraging=20 remarks.   I have made a couple of test transmissions, but no=20 comments so far.   I am having to suspend ops for the present=20= as=20 my neighbour is having a nearby tree felled and I have lowered my antenn= a=20 just in case.
 
73 Dennis M0JXM
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Graham
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 1= :27=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV=

Dennis,
 
Don't worry about  operation on=20= vlf, I=20 think you find the band acts more like top band , with a well defined=20 service area ~60/ 70 miles and a first skip round 200/250 , I can see=20= a=20 trace at Birmingham with 500mW to my antenna , only real problem is th= e=20 dreaded deep fade 'qsb' whic takes the signal out 30 seconds up to&nbs= p; 1=20 minuet + , which causes havoc with rtty , as you have no idea if the o= ther=20 station copied anything .... dont suppose you have amtor ?=20  
 
I doubt you will cause any interferen= ce=20 with  those power levels , I ran 20 watts to a inverted L&nb= sp;=20 40 ft x 40 ft for a long time , which radiated quite well , but after=20 adding a top loading coil found it worked a lot better , with 150 watt= s=20 and a new variometer tuner , still didn't record any problems=20 ..
 
Had more problems with the pc jamming= the=20 incoming signals and a funny long life bulb that radiated a well space= d=20 spectrum across the band  ! check out the pages on the google&nbs= p;=20 uk500khz web news group for links to the grabbers etc .
 
73 's
 
Graham ..
 
G0NBD
 
 
 

Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: LF: Re: 500KHz NoV

Hi Lee
 
I have just got my NOV to operate on=20= 500kHz,=20 so will be dipping my toe into the water from next week.
 
I have not got any 138kHz experience=20= and only=20 obtained my full amateur licence last May.
On my application for the NOV, I prov= ided a=20 scale diagram of my own and immediate neighbour's properties, gav= e a=20 brief description of the TX(home brew), RX(Lowe HF-225) and antenna(T)= =20 that I intend to use and an estimate of my erp from the TANTENNA=20 program on the internet (200mW).  As I am using a VFO, I use a=20 counter to measure the frequency and also monitor transmissions using=20= the=20 RX which has a digital readout.   I also stated that I would= =20 cease transmissions until any complaint was satisfactorily resolverd,=20= and=20 mentioned two nearby amateurs also working on 500kHz whose help and ad= vice=20 I could seek.
 
All the above seemed to work, so good= luck on=20 your application.  The more the merrier.
 
73 Dennis M0JXM
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lee Hudson
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008=20= 5:50=20 PM
Subject: LF: 500KHz NoV

Hi All,

 =

After reading throug= h loads=20 of stuff and monitoring the LF Group I=92m left with the decision of= =20 whether to start on 136 or 500KHz.

 =

500KHz seems much ea= sier to=20 deal with from the outset, and hopefully the NoV period will be exte= nded=20 further next year.

However the NoV itse= lf is=20 the possible stumbling block in that it appears that experience on=20 136KHz is a big plus that Ofcom appear to be looking=20 for,

 =

My question is, woul= d I get=20 away with applying for a NoV without first being active on 136KHz, o= r=20 has anyone already taken this route and been=20 successful?

 =

73,

Lee M0LMH.

 = 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.7/1581 - Release Date: 7/30/2008 06=
:56

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.10/1587 - Release Date: 8/2/2008 17=
:30

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com=20
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1590 - Release Date: 8/4/2008 08=
:09
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