Return-Path: Received: from rly-mg03.mx.aol.com (rly-mg03.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.109]) by air-mg09.mail.aol.com (v121_r2.12) with ESMTP id MAILINMG092-a0048b6b9051f0; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:41:40 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-mg03.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMG032-a0048b6b9051f0; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:41:12 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1KYifn-0005kX-TR for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:40:31 +0100 Received: from [193.82.59.130] (helo=relay2.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1KYifn-0005kO-1K for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:40:31 +0100 Received: from smtp809.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.69]) by relay2.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KYifh-0002YO-Os for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:40:29 +0100 Received: (qmail 56170 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2008 14:40:13 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=J7EzE7K8wPh3LbWf2PX/zki2HBu7Byc12sXI+C+JRmQj5c9CGuxyruM375Mr1dcmy5YcRjHYzSoNP4uMEYwNHROE8xiIb1GsCYI3rRolm9Qybskm8u5vXPd9M3BXylcuefIPw38Ayw3T2up0eCDKDlk0ersQ+VKz/4dMj7YBmYo= ; Received: from unknown (HELO w4o8m9) (james.moritz@btopenworld.com@86.135.190.93 with login) by smtp809.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2008 14:40:12 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: PyGDQOwVM1nNhhVua8oXuIC.dSxH6XzoAtR5GKzbVvCyCg3e_hMF1qP4WlPUgS8Grz7qY7oQy25A0OAk3FPASNzmztg1rIUzbOH5p0cUFw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.5.524 [270.6.7/1632]); Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:34:45 +0100 Message-ID: <000b01c90895$1b4f4920$4201a8c0@home> From: "James Moritz" To: Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:34:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,AWL=-0.302,DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.881,RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=0.327 Subject: LF: Re: 531kHz, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DATE_IN_PAST_12_24 autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : post.thorcom.com ; SPF_helo = n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : btopenworld.com ; SPF_822_from = n Dear Mal, LF Group, I'm afraid there isn't much chance of getting the 136kHz Loran problem sorted due to potential interference to commercial users - The main users of this part of the spectrum seem to be the tele-switching stations like DCF39, and the Datatrack beacons. The operators of these systems have to make sure their signal levels will reliably overcome the QRN, not to mention the local man-made QRM in buildings and vehicles where the receivers are located, hence their huge ERP. The presence of Loran sidebands is highly unlikely to be a factor affecting the overall system reliability. So the Loran noise is not really a problem to anyone apart from amateurs, who have, from other peoples viewpoint, a perverse insistence in trying to utilise signals that are only marginally and fleetingly above the natural band noise. This is a bit different from the potentially real safety issue of interference to Navtex broadcasts in the North Sea. The Loran transmitters have to conform to particular standards for signal quality, which they apparently do. The standard is based on the pulse shape of the emitted signal, which has to be closely specified so that the receivers can extract the correct timing information, and thus get an accurate position fix.. The sideband levels at 136k are largely fixed by the pulse shape. Modifying the TX signal to generate lower sideband levels at 136k may be feasible, but would have consequences throughout the system. Modifying a whole network of multi-100kW transmittersand possibly thousands of receivers too would be a massively expensive undertaking, unlike the 531kHz broadcast TX, which just needed someone to go and turn the modulation down a bit. I think it is more interesting to try and do something positive with Loran, rather than just saying it shouldn't be as it is. DF6NM's propagation studies using Loran have been very interesting. Several methods to overcome the QRM have been tried - some even work quite well! I have had quite good results with phased antennas with steerable nulls. It is frustrating sometimes, but also the challenge makes life more interesting. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU