Return-Path: Received: from rly-mg07.mx.aol.com (rly-mg07.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.113]) by air-mg02.mail.aol.com (v120.9) with ESMTP id MAILINMG022-a25473ef14e1b1; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:49:09 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-mg07.mx.aol.com (v120.9) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMG077-a25473ef14e1b1; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:49:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ItO1y-0004oS-U2 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:48:18 +0000 Received: from [193.82.59.130] (helo=relay2.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ItO1y-0004oJ-CU for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:48:18 +0000 Received: from smtp801.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.61]) by relay2.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1ItO1u-0001wH-Uq for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:48:18 +0000 Received: (qmail 15109 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2007 13:48:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btopenworld.com; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=x6x6TTN/gGmo5+DNfpTiTJ78YMa6Xlk2tqIy6ZGPO/giP5E/x0dzV05jTyE2olTKvZUgh2Fmfag7fm1h7UgMcK49t6EZVAMeHHlccj/Wr62r8ZPv41atOzFlcKF/Ber8j7uGyaXArww2cymLHw5Tg2juBw/2acf3IGoNFrg5t2U= ; Received: from unknown (HELO w4o8m9) (james.moritz@btopenworld.com@213.122.39.248 with login) by smtp801.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Nov 2007 13:48:08 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: luBAgXoVM1kO2W1e0H_SLtwf_oaj0pcBWoUpFxcWCkHbiF4puxA7Pax7a3L14vs6Ou8JsSuDOw-- Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.5.503 [269.16.0/1135]); Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:46:20 +0000 Message-ID: <001d01c82920$3be7d300$f8277ad5@w4o8m9> From: "James Moritz" To: References: <20071117100817.54c90983@lurcher.twatt.local> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:46:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,AWL=-0.120 Subject: LF: Re: RX artillery Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_helo : n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_822_from : n Dear John, LF Group, If the RX noise level is the same as the antenna noise level, then when you connect the antenna to the receiver, the noise at the RX output should increase by 3dB - this would probably satisfy the criterion of being able to hear the noise increase when the antenna is connected, but would give 3dB worse signal-to-noise ratio than an RX with a very low noise figure. I guess this would be quite significant with a weak signal at the threshold of audibility, so really you want quite a big increase in noise level when you connect the antenna - for example, if the RX noise is 10dB below the antenna noise, the noise level would increase by about 10.4dB with the antenna connected, and the degradation in overall SNR would only be about 0.4dB. What is meant by noise is another thing - even quite a deaf receiver can hear the static crackles on either LF or MF, but what really is the limiting factor to detecting a signal is the background "hiss" between the cracks and pops, which can be at a much lower level. Also, at my QTH, even on a quiet-sounding band a considerable part of the noise can be mains-related - this can be quite hard to distinguish from the band noise, but is more obvious if you look at the RX output with an oscilloscope set to "line" triggering. So I would certainly agree that a preamp could often be useful in improving SNR - I think the same is probably true for many rigs on the higher HF bands, if you are using modest dipole-like antennas. Also, the receiving antenna arrangements are obviously very important, since the local noise levels can easily be much higher than the band noise. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU