X-GM-THRID: 1205553291555435496 X-Gmail-Labels: rsgb lf X-Gmail-Received: 53f897de01c6a343ec7ebc722aceaf6003e2a4e4 Delivered-To: daveyxm@gmail.com Received: by 10.54.127.17 with SMTP id z17cs5178wrc; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.24.12 with SMTP id 12mr465034hux; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id 23si453614hud.2006.06.08.06.08.12; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 06:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (gmail.com: 193.82.116.20 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1FoK8C-00073Z-Il for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:01:00 +0100 Received: from [193.82.59.130] (helo=relay2.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1FoK8C-00073Q-1y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:01:00 +0100 Received: from mx4-1.spamtrap.magma.ca ([209.217.78.176]) by relay2.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.51) id 1FoK87-00024W-ND for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:00:59 +0100 Received: from mail3.magma.ca (mail3.internal.magma.ca [10.0.10.13]) by mx4-1.spamtrap.magma.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k58D0pUf010353 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 09:00:51 -0400 Received: from nocturna-y1zrar.magma.ca (nrtcorback-216-168-120-145.nrtco.net [216.168.120.145]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail3.magma.ca (Magma's Mail Server) with ESMTP id k58D0m59022603 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 09:00:50 -0400 Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.1.20060608082442.019be388@magma.ca> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:01:28 -0400 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: Bill de Carle In-Reply-To: <4487EB8A.27171.B415B8@localhost> References: <001501c68a76$9c02c8c0$0200a8c0@AUG2004> <4487EB8A.27171.B415B8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-magma-MailScanner-Information: Magma Mailscanner Service X-magma-MailScanner: Clean X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,AWL=-1.159,FORGED_RCVD_HELO=0.05 Subject: Re: LF: BBC 198kHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5161 At 04:19 AM 6/8/2006, Mike, G3XDV wrote: [..] >I am now convinced my problem is caused by frequency error in my TS- >850. Looking at several standards, the errors are as follows >(relative to an arbitrary zero): >60.0kHz: -1.0Hz >75.0kHz: -0.8Hz >77.5kHz: -0.7Hz >162kHz: -0.1Hz >198kHz: +0.1Hz >490kHz (using my LF Tx DDS) +3.0Hz >Plotting this on a graph shows approximately a straight line. This >indicates a progressive error as frequency increases. The error isn't strictly linear over all frequencies but it is repeatable so once you know the error for any given frequency it can be allowed for. The TS850 uses a combination of PLL's and DDS chips to generate all the internal signals it needs - everything is derived from a single 20 Mhz reference. One interesting thing is that the error can be completely characterised by measuring it at a particular frequency within any 500 Khz block (e.g. 0 - 500 Khz, 500Khz - 1 Mhz, 1.5 Mhz - 2.0 Mhz etc). Once you've measured that error in any block you know it for the same frequency modulo 500 Khz (ie the offset for say 1.290123 Mhz is the same as the offset for 290.123 Khz, 790.123 Khz etc). Another interesting thing is that in many cases the hardware is capable of tuning closer to the optimum value than the rig's firmware actually allows! In other words, the algorithm Kenwood uses to figure out the best possible values to load into their four (yes four!) 28-bit DDS chips is not optimized to always tune to the nearest frequency to the one shown on the display. Based on Kenwood's block diagram of their synthesizer, I wrote a program to calculate the actual frequency the rig tunes for any given displayed frequency - but I had to offer several choices near the *best* frequency because I never did figure out Kenwood's algorithm. To find the *actual* freq the rig's firmware tunes to, I still have to measure the audio output with a known frequency input. Fortunately the steps between possible freqs are big enough that it is is obvious which one they're using given that the error in my measurements (due to sound card sampling uncertainty) is around 1 mHz. The worst mis-tune I've ever seen on the TS850 was around 58 mHz, which would not normally be noticed by HF operators. Assuming CW mode and 800-Hz tone out, here are the actual offsets (rounded to 3 decimal places) for your freqs: Frequency Best possible tune Actual tune ----------------------------------------------------------- 60.000 Khz 799.983 799.960 (40 mHz low) 75.000 Khz 799.997 799.967 (33 mHz low) 77.500 Khz 799.999 799.962 (38 mHz low) 162.000 Khz 799.984 799.984 (16 mHz low) 198.000 Khz 800.008 799.972 (28 mHz low) 490.000 Khz 799.983 799.983 (17 mHz low) I'd love to hear from anyone who may have access to the Kenwood firmware code so I can make my little program show the "right" frequency every time instead of saying "it must be one of these possibilities..." I wrote Kenwood asking for details of their algorithm but they did not reply to my email. Bill VE2IQ