Return-Path: Received: (qmail 36676 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2004 15:18:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ptb-spamcore01.plus.net) (192.168.71.1) by ptb-mailstore02.plus.net with SMTP; 27 Nov 2004 15:18:43 -0000 Received: from mailnull by ptb-spamcore01.plus.net with spamcore-l-b (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CY4e4-000MsI-Fb for dave@picks.force9.co.uk; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:37:58 +0000 Received: from [192.168.67.2] (helo=ptb-mxcore02.plus.net) by ptb-spamcore01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim 4.32; FreeBSD) id 1CY4e4-000MsF-Ct for dave@picks.force9.co.uk; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:37:56 +0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com ([193.82.116.20]) by ptb-mxcore02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1CY4LR-000Ktn-RZ for dave@picks.force9.co.uk; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:18:41 +0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1CY4Ks-0000Iz-VG for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:18:06 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.30] (helo=relay.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1CY4Ks-0000Iq-HI for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:18:06 +0000 Received: from cmsout02.mbox.net ([165.212.64.32]) by relay.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.41) id 1CY4Ko-0007iC-Qq for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:18:06 +0000 Received: from cmsout02 (cmsout02 [165.212.64.32]) by cmsout02.mbox.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2125E4C89B for ; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:17:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from uadvg131.cms.usa.net [165.212.11.131] by cmsout02 via smtad (C8.MAIN.3.16w); Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:17:55 GMT X-USANET-From: 165.212.11.131 IN dibene@usa.net uadvg131.cms.usa.net Received: from [192.168.0.2] [151.41.147.74] by uadvg131.cms.usa.net (ASMTP/dibene@usa.net) via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.21E) with ESMTP id 608ikAPR20304M31; Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:17:53 GMT X-USANET-Auth: 151.41.147.74 AUTH dibene@usa.net [192.168.0.2] Message-ID: <41A89AAD.2080804@usa.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:18:05 +0100 From: Alberto di Bene User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 (Windows/20041103) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org References: <000b01c4d3fc$f0716880$6507a8c0@Main> In-Reply-To: <000b01c4d3fc$f0716880$6507a8c0@Main> X-USANET-MsgId: XID608ikAPR20304X31 X-SPF-Result: relay.thorcom.net: 165.212.64.32 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of usa.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=no, Subject: LF: Re: MSK etc and stability Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Filtered: by PlusNet SpamCORE (v3.00) Hi Alan, Jim, Andy, Bill, Wolf, etc. etc. just a few wild thougths on the subject, which haven't been thoroughly analyzed, but this is what the collective mind of this forum is meant for, isn't it ? :-) Firstly, I like the idea of Andy, of a GSPSK (Gentle Sloping PSK), which should substantially reduce the amplitude variations of the signal, when subject to phase modulation. Any volunteer for a mathematical analysis (or a simulation) of the crest factor as a function of the "gentleness" of the phase transitions ? Then it comes the issue of frequency stability and precison, which are two different items. While stability is quite important, let's see if there is a way to relax the demand for absolute precision. I was thinking of a scheme more or less like the following, for the 137 kHz scenario, for demodulating a BPSK transmission. Suppose your hardware has a fixed LO at 135 kHz, and a couple of quadrature mixers. Then the entire 137 kHz band is converted into the range 700 - 2800 Hz, whose I & Q components are fed to the ubiquitous sound card. A PC program can now mix down, with a tunable NCO, that range to zero IF and apply a complex FIR lowpass with a BW of just a few Hz. What do you have now ? A rotating vector (ideally it should not rotate, if the zero IF is actually zero), whose phase is instantaneously defined by atan(Q/I). If you do a long term averaging of the speed of variation of this phase, you can then more or less easily measure if the instantaneous phase is leading or lagging this averaged value. This is just the recovered 0 or 1 bit of the phase modulation applied to your carrier. As long as you stay inside the BW of the above FIR filter, the absolute value of the variation of the phase with time (i.e. the frequency) is of no importance, as you are interested only in the deviations from the mean of this value. So you have a tuning tolerance of a few Hz. Of course there are a lot of details to be worked out carefully, like the adaptivness of the computation of the mean value, and a precoding scheme that would more or less guarantee that no DC component is present in the modulation signal, to avoid undue shifts of the averaged phase speed value, but these are items not impossible to cope with. As said, just a wild idea. If there are valid reasons to trash it, please speak up, so I won't waste any more time thinking at it. Thanks. 73 Alberto I2PHD P.S. BTW, with the above scheme, sampling rate errors of the sound card would become of no importance.