Return-Path: Received: (qmail 47289 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2004 02:18:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ptb-mxscan02.plus.net) (212.159.14.236) by ptb-mailstore02.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jan 2004 02:18:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 65842 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2004 02:18:33 -0000 X-Filtered-by: Plusnet (hmail v1.01) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Spam-detection-level: 11 Received: from ptb-mxcore02.plus.net (212.159.14.216) by ptb-mxscan02.plus.net with SMTP; 16 Jan 2004 02:18:32 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from post.thorcom.com ([193.82.116.20]) by ptb-mxcore02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1AhJZ9-000H1J-U0 for dave@picks.force9.co.uk; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:18:31 +0000 X-Fake-Domain: majordom Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AhJYS-0007RP-1G for rs_out@blacksheep.org; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:17:48 +0000 Received: from [64.12.136.161] (helo=imo-m06.mx.aol.com) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AhJYR-0007RG-6n for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:17:47 +0000 X-Fake-Domain: WarmSpgs@aol.com Received: from WarmSpgs@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r4.12.) id l.17c.2575f6b5 (4254) for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:17:14 -0500 (EST) From: WarmSpgs@aol.com Message-ID: <17c.2575f6b5.2d38a3aa@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:17:14 EST To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 Subject: LF: Re: lf andnoise and offshore. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-PN-SPAMFiltered: yes X-Spam-Rating: 1 >From either an engineering standpoint or a scientific standpoint, I'm not very comfortable with the term "sea gain" being applied at LF. The sea is vastly less lossy than land--conductivity of 5000mS/m for the former, versus a range of anyone from one-half to 30mS/m for the latter. There is no gain at work here; the received signal strength is never as much or more than the inverse distance law would suggest for the same signal over a perfectly conductive surface. Note that this statement, as phrased, encompasses the varying skywave/surfacewave proportions one would encounter at different frequencies and over different path lengths. Taking all those into account, observed field strengths on and near the ocean still do not exceed expected values by the conventional propagation models. One could easily fall into superstition by casually thinking of it as actual gain. The conductivity difference between seawater and land (ranging from 150-to-1 up to thousands-to-1) is not trivial. It makes a huge difference in surface wave propagation, obviously. It reduces attenuation for each earth reflection of skywaves. It even affects efficiency of the receive antenna in some cases. To address Bryan's comments about longwave and mediumwave comparisons, the effects are actually quite similar between LF and MF. Surface wave attenuation is greater for a given surface conductivity as one increases in frequency, of course, but in this regard 136kHz, 770kHz, or even higher, are all just points on a continuum. Much the same is true of D-layer effects between LF and MF. The resulting differences are in such things as the distance where one first runs into fading zones and in the amount of day/night signal variations. But again, these are points on a continuum. One has to go down to mid-VLF before one encounters fundamental differences in how propagation works (increasingly by waveguide effect), and even that is more because of differences in the ionosphere's behavior than the earth's or the ocean's. Skin depth of the ocean increases as frequency falls, but even at "classical" submarine frequencies in the 10-30kHz range, the sea is *far* from transparent to radio waves, experiencing 6 to 10dB of attenuation per meter of depth. That's pretty drastic. You have to trail a very long wire, and you're still uncomfortably near the surface given the capabilities of spy satellites. It is necessary to descend to 1kHz to achieve a mere 1dB/m, and even at the ULF signaling frequencies of Sanguine and Zevs, it runs one or two tenths of a decibel per meter--manageable at depth, albeit only at very low data rates. A good graph of the attenuation values can be found in M. L Burrows' "ELF Communications Antennas" (1978, Peter Peregrinus Ltd on behalf of the IEE). (OT: In the other direction, the attenuation rises uniformly to roughly 1000dB/m (!) at 10GHz, then jumps roughly another decade of loss, where it remains more or less constant until we reach the visible light spectrum, where the curve takes a sharp dip down to about the 1kHz level. The ability of electromagnetic radiation to penetrate liquid water to reasonable depths at that frequency is exactly the reason why the chlorophyll molecule, and by extension, its later quasi-analog, the hemoglobin molecule, are at the heart of nearly all life on earth. The evolutionary chemical consequences of which, are why we know that octave of spectrum as "visible light" in the first place.) John D