Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19920 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 11:43:47 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: from murphys.services.quay.plus.net (212.159.14.225) by mailstore with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 11:43:47 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: (qmail 24520 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2002 11:42:51 -0000 Received: from post.thorcom.com (193.82.116.70) by murphys.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 10 Jul 2002 11:42:51 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-SQ: A Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SFkU-0002QV-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:10 +0100 Received: from hestia.herts.ac.uk ([147.197.200.9]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17SFkT-0002QQ-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:09 +0100 Received: from gemini ([147.197.200.44] helo=gemini.herts.ac.uk) by hestia.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id 17SFkR-0004UN-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:07 +0100 Received: from [147.197.232.252] (helo=rsch-15.herts.ac.uk) by gemini.herts.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SFkR-0006Mp-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:35:07 +0100 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710113519.00a82c30@gemini.herts.ac.uk> X-Sender: mj9ar@gemini.herts.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:29:02 +0100 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org From: "James Moritz" Subject: RE: LF: Amtor FEC on LF In-reply-to: <01C227EF.24643850.g4jnt@thersgb.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: Dear Andy, LF Group, At 08:52 10/07/2002 +0100, you wrote: >137k, on the other hand is characterised by a much more constant noise >background and does not behave like HF divided by ten - if fading is >present, >it covers a much longer period of tens of minutes or hours This is true under quiet winter-time conditions, but these are in the minority - the rest of the time, a large proportion of the total noise power is in the form of QRN spikes. If you look at an RX IF output on a scope under noisy band conditions, you see a fairly low background level with much larger spikes - the noisier the conditions, the greater the rate of spikes occuring. The spikes are 10s of dB larger than the background level, and usually overload the receiver for the duration of the spike - if you manually reduce the IF gain, the background noise gets smaller, but the peak amplitude of the spikes on the scope stays much the same. When you use PSK31under weak signal conditions, the effect is that each time there is a spike, a character is corrupted, which matters little if there is only 1 spike every few seconds, but when the noise is clattering away like it is at the moment, the signal will probably be unreadable even if it is well above the background noise level. So while PSK31 is good under quiet LF conditions (and "PSK08" better still), I don't think it is the optimum mode for typically noisy LF conditions. Some sort of error correction would seem to be a good idea, since the data bits between the noise spikes will be uncorrupted, so a fairly large proportion of the data will be received OK - I have not tried the QPSK variant of PSK31 due to lack of suitable TX hardware, But I recall VE2IQ's "Coherent", which does include error correction, worked well under noisy LF conditions. This is actually very flexible software - the only real drawback of this is that it requires a computer running DOS, and some external hardware. Oh, and as with other PSK modes it requires TX envelope shaping - but there is the "variable phase" modulation technique which could help there. Since the spikes are of short duration, another approach might be to use a hardware or software noise blanker in conjunction with a low baud rate so that each bit was much longer than the noise impulse. This would require an RX IF bandwidth much larger than the bandwidth of the signal for the blanker to work effectively, but still narrow enough to eliminate adjacent channel QRM like DCF39 which would cause dynamic range problems - but with 8 or 10 bauds this should not be a problem. Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU