Return-Path: Received: (qmail 19203 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2002 11:58:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO warrior.services.quay.plus.net) (212.159.14.227) by excalibur-qfe1-smtp-plusnet.harl.plus.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2002 11:58:51 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received: (qmail 4138 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2002 11:58:52 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by warrior.services.quay.plus.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2002 11:58:52 -0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16Lk15-0005zG-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:57:07 +0000 Received: from bob.dera.gov.uk ([192.5.29.90]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 16Lk13-0005z9-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:57:05 +0000 Received: by bob.dera.gov.uk; (8.8.8/1.3/10May95) id MAA12369; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:05:44 GMT Received: (qmail 20459 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2002 12:45:48 -0000 Received: from gauntlet.mail.dstl.gov.uk (192.168.9.10) by baton.dstl.gov.uk with SMTP; 2 Jan 2002 12:45:48 -0000 Received: by gauntlet.mail.dstl.gov.uk; id MAA15266; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:16:26 GMT Received: from unknown(172.17.128.171) by gauntlet.mail.dstl.gov.uk via smap (3.2) id xma015254; Wed, 2 Jan 02 12:16:21 GMT Received: from FRN-MAIL-R3.dstl.gov.uk (unverified) by mailguard.dstl.gov.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:02:13 +0000 Received: by frn-mail-r3.dstl.gov.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:56:11 -0000 Message-ID: <7D653C9C42F5D411A27C00508BF8803D55C67F@pdw-mail-r1.dstl.gov.uk> From: "Talbot Andrew" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: 7 FSK Spacing, PSK, and simple accurate , frequency sources Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:56:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: There has been quite a lot of comment recently about 7FSK and the bandwidth it takes up. The only transmissions (other than my initial tests) were by Jim who seemed to be using quite a wide spacing relative to the dot length. This is a classic spread spectrum transmission where bandwidth is quite a lot wider than necessary either to assist in demodulation or to mitigate certain propagation effects. If we are to use this mode with visual 'decoding' using Argo then we really need to do some tests with weak signals and different spacings to see what is optimum. A good point to start would be at a tone spacing equal to twice to three times the reciprocal of the symbol interval. Thus for 30 second symbols, one letter per minute, for Argo's 30s dot mode, try a tone spacing of 0.07 to 0.1Hz, giving a signal bandwidth of 0.4 or 0.6Hz. It may be possible to go narrower, but reading will be more difficult as the signal will now be in adjacent frequency bins. ..................................... On a different matter, I have been taking part in some 137kHz test transmissions using very low power to G3PLX who is using coherent reception and GPS locked signalling. We are still in the early days yet, and Peter has been sidetracked into some domestic work for now, but initial results look promising. I have been radiating about 1 Watt of RF which, with my antenna, equates to about 200uW ERP and Peter got perfect copy at 400km distance. The signal format was 30 second BPSK, but the results would have stood much faster than this. His next stage is to integrate over longer periods and for me to transmit with even lower power. The key to these experiments is very accurate signal timing and frequencies, we require stabilities and accuracies of just a few parts in 10^-10 in order for the signal to stay within a few degrees of phase over tthe entire transmitting period. In fact a DDS source makes life difficult due to my only having steps of 5MHz / 2^32 !! Symbol timings are also locked to GPS. Peter uses a very novel and very simple way of locking a receiver to GPS - I shan't explain how here, but will leave him to cover it in a subsequent write up; it is not finalised yet, but is very straightforward and needs little more hardware than a GPS receiver module with a 1 PPS output. I have extremally high frequency stability anyway, but we need to look at a simpler route to getting a low cost locked standard from GPS before this technique can be used with a wider audience. For LF signalling, phase noise or slight jitter on the transmission during a symbol interval is not a problem, meaning that a GPS locked frequency standard using the 1 PPS output to adjust a crystal oscillator would be adequatem - so generating ANY frequency that is a multiple of 1 Hz becomes possible. My main interest in high stability sources is rather different as I am, these days, more into high frequencies where the 1 Hz jitter is an absolute taboo when multiplied up to GHz - it would appear as audible chirp up there. However, having been nudged in this direction by Peter I did spend time during a long walk yesterday thinking of sources for LF : Start with a very simple VCXO using any cheap crystal,assume its frequency could be up to +/- 30ppm out. The only requirement on actual frequency is that it ends up at a multiple of 1Hz. Continuously clock this into a binary counter and exactly every second (derived from the GPS receiver) measure the counter value. If the counter is long enough it will be able to resolve all frequency ambiguities (30 ppm at 5 MHz would normally give 150 potential lock points if a simple latch were used). Use the error between this count and what is should be, to generate a correction signal to control the VCXO. An 8 bit counter would be good enough and a PIC interrupted by the GPS pulse reading this counter, plus a handfull of Rs and Cs should do it. We end up with a strange mixture of PLL and frequency locked loop, but one that is simple and optimised to long duration signalling on LF. This is probably a re-invention of the wheel but I haven't seen exactly these requirements before; a very high medium to long term stability but short term / phase noise not too important. I think this is basically what Brooks Shera does in his GPS frequency standard mentioned on this reflector recently, but his design requires a good oscillator source to give a very high performance standard across the spectrum. We do not need this kind of short term performance where signalling is going to use symbol lengths of many seconds. This techniqe may also be allied to the old Huff and Puff stabilisation technique, but extended by the N stage counter rather than a sigle flip-flop to remove frequency lock point ambiguity. The original Huff and Puff system was a little bit before my time in the early 1970's :-) Andy G4JNT -- The Information contained in this E-Mail and any subsequent correspondence is private and is intended solely for the intended recipient(s). For those other than the recipient any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on such information is prohibited and may be unlawful.