Return-Path: Received: (qmail 10519 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2001 07:34:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO murphys-inbound.servers.plus.net) (212.159.14.225) by 10.226.25.101 with SMTP; 12 Feb 2001 07:34:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 15460 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2001 07:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO post.thorcom.com) (212.172.148.70) by murphys with SMTP; 12 Feb 2001 07:34:19 -0000 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14SDFf-0002IX-00 for rsgb_lf_group-outgoing@blacksheep.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:18:23 +0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Received: from kauha.saunalahti.fi ([195.197.53.227]) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14SDFe-0002IS-00 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:18:22 +0000 Received: from pmk2 (DCCXLII.hdyn.saunalahti.fi [195.74.25.142]) by kauha.saunalahti.fi (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f1C7InC27497 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:18:49 +0200 (EET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Paul Keinanen" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Very large adaptive rx array Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:18:04 +0200 Message-ID: References: <94.ffdecc5.27b8a16f@aol.com> In-reply-to: <94.ffdecc5.27b8a16f@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group Sender: On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:16:15 EST, MarkusVester@aol.com wrote: >Hi group, > >is there more you can do with that CW carrier-component than simply detect >the presence of a signal without being able to decode it? Well, we could use >it to guide a large adaptive array to regain the data rate: > >- 100 receivers in different locations across Europe record audio files of a >highly desired DX-station transmitting 3 s qrss, buried -10 dB in the noise, It seems that you are thinking about similar array than the VLBI (Very Long Baseline Interferometry) used in radio astronomy to get a high angular resolution. >- offline, we extract the frequency offset and phase of the DX carrier >components in each file using low bandwidth (e.g. 3 mHz). We also estimate >their signal-to-noise ratios; In VLBI a very high stability frequency standard (hydrogen masers etc.) is used as a phase reference on each receiving station and these timing signal is inserted on the same tape as the received signal. All tapes are read out by the correlator and the timing signal is matched with those from other tapes. A low cost amateur solution could be to record a commonly received signal such as Loran-C, MSF, GPS etc. on the other channel of the sound card, while the actual DX-LF signal is recorded on the other channel. >- using this information as a phase reference, we convert each file to >baseband (like in a synchronous AM-detector), > >- then add up the baseband data from all files, weighted by their SNR. Using >the carriers as pilots, we effectively have focused our large sparse array on >a small area around the transmitter, gaining some 20 dB in signal to noise >ratio, In VLBI, the individual antennas have usually a beam width of a few degree beamwidth. Thus the synthesised beam can be generated somewhere within the individual antenna beams. Signal sources well outside the beamwidth of individual antennas are attenuated, thus, reducing the receiver overloading risk. However, the individual antennas in a large LF array would be more or less omnidirectional, so the risk for overload (or quantisation of weak signals) is larger. If I understand the situation correctly, more omnidirectional antennas would be required to synthesise a _single_ narrow beam than when using individual antennas with narrow beamwidths. With an array spread over 2000 km, would in theory produce a beam width of a few arc minutes. However, since the propagation characteristics are not stable on LF (compared to empty space), such narrow beams would be more or less useless. An electronically controlled array could also be useful for nulling out some spot interference sources, but unfortunately most natural noise sources are more or less omnidirectional, so a better strategy is to put the maximum of the response towards the desired station. > >- and we finally extract the information at full data rate in its original >0.3 Hz bandwidth, saving a factor of 100 in time and transmitted energy. > >Just a thought after a glass of wine, or maybe good for something? It might be a good idea to check what the radio astronomers have done during the last decades and hopefully some good ideas could be found that could now be implemented using low cost generally available hardware and software (which is an absolute requirement for any coordinated effort between several hams :-). Paul OH3LWR