Return-Path: Received: from mtain-da02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-da02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.74]) by air-db04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDB042-861e4be3053cd3; Thu, 06 May 2010 14:06:52 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-da02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id EAC6E380005B8; Thu, 6 May 2010 14:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1OA5S3-0004Jw-71 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 19:05:35 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1OA5S2-0004Jn-Ih for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 19:05:34 +0100 Received: from mail-bw0-f218.google.com ([209.85.218.218]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OA5Rz-00007w-MJ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 06 May 2010 19:05:34 +0100 Received: by bwz10 with SMTP id 10so152729bwz.4 for ; Thu, 06 May 2010 11:05:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=52oXWeH98ijYv9Isr2OyjRVfqirfUYH8L7hIQAa51k0=; b=CrqlljpSgMTqSd8Jh+i8lZVEDLYWUGko0cnL8JtCJrwNQ5b6Rn1HFS9BLEZXKb5mv5 srZIcv650kg+iVFOuGj+rca7PVAu7VBHLsg+9y/lxttO4WZKOKA4VY4P63tpfBPwUolo 77Bxf8D3yReqeR3q9f5nspoqW+KFq3ul2gje8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=f2j6cErATYF5Pe6KJHMR6af0U2sYN6jbf/0vZ1wNtOIQVoh2/zkWYYqvxe0IXRn7vz tohdLvVZQp75JlGZtdzVV3hSeUeBmqRtSCzeFu7bqLKk5aDo04btqZXVROc08l7k7GtJ ooppYm74ldocXwDVg37xmHEIFi2wUwIVSF+yQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.10.152 with SMTP id p24mr5039688bkp.94.1273169124490; Thu, 06 May 2010 11:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.67.68 with HTTP; Thu, 6 May 2010 11:05:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <003701caed43$95e00a00$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> References: <6C0A9ACBA77A40D6A17362F114DC0A7D@AGB> <003701caed43$95e00a00$0301a8c0@your91hoehfy9g> Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:05:24 +0100 Message-ID: From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,SUBJECT_ENCODED_TWICE=1.543 Subject: LF: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_LF=3A_500_Permit_emission=92s_bandwidth=3F_EU_and_Gl?= =?windows-1252?Q?obal_=3F=3F?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325557df2677fa80485f0c9a7 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d273.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d404a4be30530171c X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --000325557df2677fa80485f0c9a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mal, Most would agree there is no place for data modes that take up lots of bandwidth, but 500kHz is an ideal band to experiment with* narrow band* da= ta modes and some of the work being undertaken is very far removed from appliance operation. 73s Roger G3XBM On 6 May 2010 18:43, mal hamilton wrote: > The majority of CW operators on LF/FMF will not exceed 100 hz bandwidth= . > 99.9% are sending at speeds of about 10wpm or less. > 100 hz is about right on LF/MF where the total bandwidth of the permitte= d > allocation is about 3 khz > also, as far as data modes are concerned all that is happening on LF/MF= is > bodging data modes meant for vhf/uhf applications and making a mess, ie= the > Appliance Operator approach > > > g3kev > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Rik Strobbe > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Sent:* Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:19 PM > *Subject:* RE: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? > > Graham, > > the document that gives us access to 500kHz says 100Hz bandwidth, but do= es > not say how many dB's the signal has to be attenuated at these limits. > > 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > ------------------------------ > *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ > owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham [g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.= uk > ] > *Verzonden:* donderdag 6 mei 2010 13:30 > *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Onderwerp:* Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? > > Ok Many thanks' for the reply's > > From that .... next is :- > > From the data, I assume that 100 Hz is the common limiting factor= for > a narrow band data transmission that could be used by all who > 'wanted' to use it ?..(noted on the cw keying speed ~ BW) > > So if a value of 100 Hz is specified, what is the 'presumed' roll-= off > of the power in the said bands ?, assuming that the original concept= was > based on CW operation , which by definition 'has to' generate sidebands= , > there must be an assumed tolerance ? > > Q would the deployment of a system that could defined as 125 hz > bandwidth ie 100 Hz with +/- 12.5 Hz overspill , cause a technica= l > breach of the regulations or be viewed as occupying the 'allocat= ed' > bandwidth for a telegraphy transmission ? , > > Taking that spectral measurements in the 10 Hz region are perhaps > starting to test even the best equipment, the area is perhaps a > little empiric ? > > I use the word telegraphy, purposely to view/observe the situation > interims of the licence conditions and not on the basis of 'mode'= which > like Liverpool and Everton have there own sub cultures but are still > football teams .. > > Thanks > > Graham > G0NBD > > > > > > *From:* Graham > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM > *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > *Subject:* LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ?? > > 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? > > > > Can any one indicated what is the permitted =91telegraphy=92 bandwid= th of > the various =91new=92 500KHz licences or special permits issued roun= d the > EU and now the rest of the Globe ? > > > > I have the impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 transm= ission > bandwidth, in some cases, eg , Belgium at 100 Hz . Others appear to be > some what wider or not defined ?. > > > > Norway is CW only ? what is the Dutch allocation ? Southern Ireland= ? > ... etc > > > > Are Beacons defined by mode or bandwidth ? > > > > Tnx =96 Graham > > G0NBD > > > > (I use the word =91telegraphy=92 as defined by the ITU R V.662-3 , = please > no reference to key clicks ! ) > > > > > --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 --000325557df2677fa80485f0c9a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mal,

Most would agree there is no place for data modes that take up= lots of bandwidth, but 500kHz is an ideal band to experiment with narr= ow band data modes and some of the work being undertaken is very far= removed from appliance operation.

73s
Roger G3XBM

On 6 May 2010 18:= 43, mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk.net> wrote:
The majority of CW operators on LF/FM= F will not=20 exceed 100 hz bandwidth. 99.9% are sending at speeds of about 10wpm or=20 less.
100 hz is about right on LF/MF where= the total=20 bandwidth of the=A0permitted allocation is about 3 khz
also, as far as data modes are concer= ned all that=20 is happening on LF/MF is bodging data modes meant for vhf/uhf applications= and=20 making a mess, ie the Appliance Operator approach
=A0
=A0
g3kev
=A0
=A0
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rik Strobbe
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:1= 9=20 PM
Subject: RE: LF: 500 Permit emis= sion=92s=20 bandwidth? EU and Global ??

Graham,
=A0
the document that gives us access= to 500kHz says=20 100Hz bandwidth, but does not say how many dB's the signal has to be= =20 attenuated at these limits.
=A0
73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T
=A0
Van: owner-rsg= b_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham=20 [g8fzk@g8fz= k.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: donderdag 6 mei 2010=20 13:30
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp:=20 Re: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Global ??
Ok Many=A0 thanks'=A0 for the= =A0=20 reply's
=A0
From that .... next is :-
=A0
From the=A0=A0data, I assume that= =A0=20 100=A0 Hz is the=A0 common=A0 limiting factor for a=A0=20 narrow=A0 band=A0 data transmission=A0 that=A0 could be used by=20 all=A0 who 'wanted'=A0 to=A0 use it=A0 ?..(noted on the=A0 cw=20 keying=A0 speed=A0 ~ BW)
=A0
So if a=A0 value of=A0 100 Hz is=A0= =20 specified, what=A0 is the=A0 'presumed'=A0 roll-off of the power= in=20 the said bands=A0?, assuming that=A0 the=A0 original=A0 concept=20 was based on CW operation , which by=A0 definition 'has to' gene= rate=20 sidebands=A0, there must be an assumed=A0 tolerance ?
=A0
Q=A0 would the deployment=A0 of a= =A0=20 system that=A0 could=A0=A0 defined as =A0 125 hz bandwidth=A0=20 ie=A0100 Hz with =A0 +/-=A0 12.5 Hz=A0 overspill , cause=A0=20 a=A0 technical=A0 breach=A0 of the=A0 regulations=A0 or=A0=20 be=A0 viewed as=A0 occupying=A0 the=A0 'allocated' bandwidth=A0= =20 for a=A0 telegraphy transmission ? ,
=A0
Taking that=A0 spectral measurement= s in=20 the=A0 10=A0 Hz=A0 region are=A0 perhaps=A0 starting=20 to=A0=A0test=A0 even the=A0 best equipment, the=A0 area=A0=20 is perhaps a=A0 little=A0 empiric ?
=A0
I use the=A0 word=A0 telegraphy, pu= rposely=20 to view/observe the=A0 situation interims of the=A0 licence=A0=20 conditions=A0and not on the=A0 basis=A0 of=A0 'mode' which=20 like=A0 Liverpool=A0 and Everton have there=A0 own sub cultures=20 =A0but are still=A0 football=A0 teams ..
=A0
Thanks=A0
=A0
Graham
G0NBD
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0

From: Graham
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: LF: 500 Permit emission=92s bandwidth? EU and Globa= l=20 ??

500 Permit=20 emission=92s bandwidth?

=A0

Can any one=20 indicated=A0 what is the=A0 permitted=20 =A0=91telegraphy=92=A0 bandwidth=A0=20 of the various =91new=92 500KHz =A0licences=A0= =20 or=A0 special=A0 permits issued round= =20 the=A0 EU and now the=A0 rest of=20 the=A0 Globe ?

=A0

I have the=20 impression that 100 Hz is the maximum =91telegraphy=92 transmission band= width, in=20 some cases, eg , Belgium at=20 100 Hz . =A0Others appear to be some what wider or not defi= ned=20 ?.

=A0

Norway=A0 is CW only=A0 ? what is the= =A0=20 Dutch=A0 allocation ? Southern Ireland ? ... etc

=A0

Are=A0 Beacons defined by=A0 mode=20 or=A0 bandwidth =A0?

=A0

Tnx =96=20 Graham

G0NBD

=A0

(I use=20 the=A0 word=A0 =91telegraphy=92 as defined by= =20 the=A0 ITU R V.662-3 , =A0please=20 no=A0 reference to key clicks !=20 )





=



--
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http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
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G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088
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