Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dd02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dd02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.142]) by air-ma05.mail.aol.com (v126.13) with ESMTP id MAILINMA054-b5274b585a6d43; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:45:17 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dd02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 5DE07380000E3; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NXxKW-0005X4-T8 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:44:12 +0000 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NXxKW-0005Wv-3n for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:44:12 +0000 Received: from mail-fx0-f217.google.com ([209.85.220.217]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NXxKT-0005rr-FM for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:44:12 +0000 Received: by fxm9 with SMTP id 9so118377fxm.30 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 05:44:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ijrNRhhr599cOJUnZp0mdgrY/QLVjKCPWIuOEIfIC2s=; b=ghW4PhCmnOJBIZayGw54H58LhJ9WkRaGZ1f/1/Hlk7nff1jA+ZnVsfndwASykxqKc3 0OWkM0MUWUDCVHJEab+KFwpTXt3Y3Ul+Vkck0rIFVQwY8y7b/pPCSljZBwFoYWKIVqWf MbZwjfWxsyU8b2HnfvreX9JYxUljB/t14Q93s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=g23X0ir69g9NkpJo00mmeF/lZhAM+/bV/n17HnZ0gNKEQG3zN5bp7LtaVkX361PVp+ gqxlkReoa3RTBvlEwanytd5z1yTnZmxEmSjFpYoJXiQPcay/NATYHglWbzpvX1C9uyzq rJltmjhItpD1acaqmIo0ZSDMCMB7NzfJi3u+U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.167.83 with SMTP id f19mr162775hbe.34.1264081441082; Thu, 21 Jan 2010 05:44:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9afca2641001210525p2b5eab47lfa84307e071ac5e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <000b01ca9a1d$f538a620$0202a8c0@laptopcore2> <20100121104239.E3CDE31E702@smtps01.kuleuven.be> <9afca2641001210525p2b5eab47lfa84307e071ac5e6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:44:00 +0000 Message-ID: From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_FONT_BIG=0.256,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: about guns, water pistols and dripping tabs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f0acea434f8c047dace5ed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_FONT_BIG,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d408e4b585a6b280a X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --001485f0acea434f8c047dace5ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re ERPs. I think mine is mostly right-ish. The antenna is a 7m high Te= e with a large top-hat, so its effective height is pretty much the same. = At a wavelength of 600m, that gives a radiation resistance of around 0.2 ohms. Load resistance of the whole antenna system is close to 50 ohms (very convenient that !!) and with 100 Watts pumped into it means ERP coul= d be 0.4 Watts or 26dBm. But there's a lot of wet trees and bushes around the antenna now, and Its quite reasonable to expect half the signal to be lost in them. When the weather improves, I'll go off and have a go at measuring accurate field strengths, but have gut-feeling I'm wihin 3dB of the estimate. Andy www.g4jnt.com 2010/1/21 Roger Lapthorn > Hi Rik, > > This is most interesting. I notice that M0BMU was running with 50mW ERP > last night, so it might be worth plugging in his reports as well for las= t > night. My ERP was based on (a) field strength measurements done some tim= e > ago by M0BMU and (b) calculations based on my estimate of effective heig= ht > and antenna current. I estimated it as being in the region of 500uW to= 2mW > but Jim seemed to believe the 1mW ERP was a fair estimate with quite lar= ge > error margins. It would be interesting to know if M0BMU still believes= the > 1mW ERP is a correct figure. I have not made any further improvements si= nce > Jim's last estimates some 6-8 weeks ago. > > What is the path length difference between us all over to you? That will > also have some effect on the relative levels. > > BTW, Dom Baines M1KTA quoted something interesting to me today: "Terman'= s > Radio Engineering Handbook (1948) > stated the maximum working distance for 1 kW 500kHz over salt water was > 1,500 miles!". So, I need to up my power then! > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > > > > 2010/1/21 Rik Strobbe > > Eddie, Andy, Roger, all, >> >> the nice thing about WSPR and the www.wspr.org web site is that a lot= af >> data is available. >> I copied the my spots (past 7 days) of G4JNT, G3XBM and G3ZJO from the= web >> site and threw them in the mill to check how often I copied at least= 2 of >> the 3 calls in the same time slot: >> I took only the night time spots as I assume that propagation then is= 1 >> hop ionospheric and small differences in distance are less important. >> >> * G3XBM - G3ZJO: 6 'hits', average difference =3D 8dB (in favor of Roge= r) >> 6 data sets is a bit low to to proper statistics, but the difference of >> 8dB between Roger and Eddie fits well into the claimed ERP's (1mW and= 200uW >> =3D 7dB) >> >> * G4JNT - G3XBM : 60 'hits', average difference =3D 15dB (in favor of= Andy) >> 15dB difference would mean that if Roger's 1mW ERP is correct that Andy >> would run "only" 30mW ERP ? >> But the standard dev. is 6dB, so it could be (a more realistic) 120mW= as >> well ... >> >> * G4JNT - G3ZJO: 6 'hits', average difference =3D 23dB (in favor of And= y) >> Nice, this is the sum of the previous values (as iit should be ;-) ) >> >> All values are give or take some dB, but they seem to make sense. >> >> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T >> >> At 23:14 20/01/2010, you wrote: >> >> Yeh ! Congratulations Roger. >> >> Lubos you have the Water Pistol, can you now RX a tiny Dripping Tap, my >> QRPp 200uW ERP is on.. >> >> 73 >> >> *Eddie* G3ZJO >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org] >> *On Behalf Of *Andy Talbot >> *Sent:* 20 January 2010 22:01 >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Subject:* Re: LF: G3XBM >> >> Congratulations, "water pistol" >> 1200km - a very comfortable margin too. >> >> >> Andy >> www.g4jnt.com >> >> 2010/1/20 Lubos OK2BVG >> Hello Roger, LF! >> This moment is just now: >> >> 2136 -7 0.2 0.503874 0 G4JNT IO90 23 >> >> 2142 -29 -0.5 0.503910 1 G3XBM JO02 0 >> >> Congratulation! >> >> Lubos, OK2BVG, JN88KS >> ------------------------------ >> Windows 7: Kter=FD po=E8=EDta=E8 je pro v=E1s ten prav=FD? Dal=B9=ED in= formace. >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 270.14.151/2633 - Release Date: >> 01/19/10 17:49:00 >> >> > > > -- > > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM > G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 > --001485f0acea434f8c047dace5ed Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re ERPs.=A0=A0 I think mine is=A0mostly right-ish.=A0=A0 The antenna= is a 7m high Tee with a large top-hat, so its effective height is pretty= much the same.=A0=A0 At a wavelength of 600m, that gives a radiation resi= stance of around 0.2 ohms.=A0=A0 Load resistance of the whole antenna syst= em is close to 50 ohms (very convenient that !!) and with 100 Watts pumped= into it means ERP could be 0.4 Watts or 26dBm.=A0=A0 But there's a lo= t of wet trees and bushes around the antenna now, and Its quite reasonable= to expect half the signal to be lost in them.
=A0
When the weather improves, I'll go off and have a go at measuring= accurate field strengths, but have=A0 gut-feeling I'm wihin 3dB of th= e estimate.
2010/1/21 Roger Lapthorn <= rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>=
Hi Rik,

This is most= interesting. I notice that M0BMU was running with 50mW ERP last night, so= it might be worth plugging in his reports as well for last night. My ERP= was based on (a) field strength measurements done some time ago by M0BMU= and (b) calculations based on my estimate of effective height and antenna= current. I estimated it as being in the region of 500uW to 2mW but Jim se= emed to believe the 1mW ERP was a fair estimate with quite large error mar= gins. It would be interesting to know if M0BMU still believes the 1mW ERP= is a correct figure. I have not made any further improvements since Jim&#= 39;s last estimates some 6-8 weeks ago.

What is the path length difference between us all over to you? That wi= ll also have some effect on the relative levels.

BTW, Dom Baines M1= KTA quoted something interesting to me today: "Terman's Radio Eng= ineering Handbook (1948)
stated the maximum working distance for 1=A0kW 500kHz over salt water was= 1,500 miles!". So, I need to up my power then!

73s
Roger= G3XBM




2010/1/21 Rik Strobbe <rik.strobbe= @fys.kuleuven.be>=20

Eddie, Andy, Roger, all,

the nice thing about WSPR and the www.wspr.org web site= is that a lot af data is available.
I copied the my spots (past 7 days= ) of G4JNT, G3XBM and G3ZJO from the web site and threw them in the mill= to check how often I copied=A0 at least 2 of the 3 calls in the same time= slot:
I took only the night time spots as I assume that propagation then is 1 ho= p ionospheric and small differences in distance are less important.
* G3XBM - G3ZJO: 6 'hits', average difference =3D 8dB (in favor= of Roger)
6 data sets is a bit low to to proper statistics, but the difference of 8d= B between Roger and Eddie fits well into the claimed ERP's (1mW and 20= 0uW =3D 7dB)

* G4JNT - G3XBM : 60 'hits', average differenc= e =3D 15dB (in favor of Andy)
15dB difference would mean that if Roger's 1mW ERP is correct that And= y would run "only" 30mW ERP ?
But the standard dev. is 6dB,= so it could be (a more realistic) 120mW as well ...

* G4JNT - G3ZJ= O: 6 'hits', average difference =3D 23dB (in favor of Andy)
Nice, this is the sum of the previous values (as iit should be ;-) )
All values are give or take some dB, but they seem to make sense.
73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T

At 23:14 20/01/2010, you wrote:
Yeh ! Congrat= ulations Roger.
=A0
Lubos you have the Water Pistol, can you now RX= a tiny Dripping Tap, my QRPp 200uW ERP is on..
=A0
73
=A0
Eddie G3ZJO
=A0
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org [ mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf= Of Andy Talbot
Sent: 20 January 2010 22:01
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<= br>Subject: Re: LF: G3XBM
=A0
Congratulations,=A0 "water pistol"
1200km - a very comfortabl= e margin too.
=A0

Andy
www.g4jnt.com

2010/1/20 Lubos OK2BVG <bvgbob@hotmail.com>= ;
Hello Roger, LF!
This moment is just now:

2136=A0 -7=A0 0.2=A0= =A0 0.503874=A0 0 G4JNT IO90 23

2142 -29 -0= .5=A0=A0 0.503910=A0 1 G3XBM JO02 0

Congratulation!

L= ubos, OK2BVG, JN88KS
Windows= 7: Kter=FD po=E8=EDta=E8 je pro v=E1s ten prav=FD? Dal=B9=ED informace.
=A0<= br>
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg= .com
Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 270.14.151/2633 - Release= Date: 01/19/10 17:49:00



--

http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.= com/
http://w= ww.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www= .youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G110= 88

--001485f0acea434f8c047dace5ed--