Return-Path: Received: from rly-me10.mx.aol.com (rly-me10.mail.aol.com [172.20.83.44]) by air-me08.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILINME083-9df485a9784321; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:30:03 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by rly-me10.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINME103-9df485a9784321; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:29:42 -0400 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1K9NwV-0001UE-Ks for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:29:03 +0100 Received: from [83.244.159.144] (helo=relay3.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1K9NwV-0001U5-1h for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:29:03 +0100 Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.180]) by relay3.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1K9NwR-0002bQ-UJ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:29:02 +0100 Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id z25so34481ele.1 for ; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=pPgxQwqjD0RtF3kaIKmgpy8/U2M1aPwQfvRpZdCCcFI=; b=m4NWPHOzDvtznZfdANyorsAyoH40Sv9Qer+Xe711+ouiqPsPe2qBUlkB0MWFzMPdwD MK88wHQsT6CmpKiyCohOPn6m/pfRetlW8erGOMGKZt2NnLhRPYce6WBd6NC+zqJ9Iupx h66HdFX3YiX1D0kqwQy1Nc098YoVTDDgurFZg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=NiEFRFlZqgX8Hcu2zyN177KNSJXqblc7pv+79uezHA8nJZeLo7eEnmlkljdaCSWxbx VrHEaZjt+PO3eEHGEDCrSSM4sY1NKbnI/buaI3GhDmrAgzHThsOnM9VFwBFP2eMso0iz rBBMlZQdjpydZ8hDyllaoZhE2ztG2TSl9nB2k= Received: by 10.151.103.2 with SMTP id f2mr3525947ybm.10.1213896536577; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.50.21 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:28:56 +0100 From: "Andy Talbot" To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <485A7BC5.1080206@g3ysx.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <005301c8d182$93d802a0$0200a8c0@LapTop1> <008f01c8d189$47145a20$0900a8c0@AM> <485A7BC5.1080206@g3ysx.org.uk> DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,none Subject: Re: LF: Re: Loran C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : post.thorcom.co ; SPF_helo = X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: domain : googlemail.co ; SPF_822_from = X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m234.2 ; domain : googlemail.com DKIM = pass X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Good - I'm glad to know the telecomms opeators have thought about the vulnerabilities inherent with putting all their eggs into the GPS timing basket. I had been told - clearly from a not too informed source - that GPS timing units were used at each base station. Does the same apply to 3G (or GSM for that matter) mobile networks as well? Andy G4JNT 2008/6/19 Stewart Bryant : > Andy Talbot wrote: >> >> The article has a very good point to make about GPS jamming though. I >> think its probably the first time I've seen it talked about in the >> open-press. Our telecomms infrastructure now is so critically >> dependent on accurate timing that a few well deployed low power >> jammers could cause serious disruption. > > Although modern communications systems are dependent on sync, > the current systems in the UK need frequency not time. > > Although the UK SDH networks use GPS for local time sources, > to drive reference oscillators, all the systems I know > use multiple Cesiums as a backup. Most other networks > (for example the mobile phone networks) connect to > an SDH network by some means or other and take their sync > from that source. > > The big R&D problem in this space is how we manage the > migration to packet networks with Ethernet delivery, and > great lengths are being taken to avoid the need to rely > on GPS for critical sync functions. Indeed GPS-only sync > would be regarded as a show-stopper by all of the sync > network designers I have spoken to. > > A lot of newer sync technology (the media access systems) > needs relatively course (1us class) time as well as frequency > to function, but there is work in hand to deliver that > over packet networks (IEEE1588, IETF TICTOC etc) > > So I would not worry about GPS jamming disrupting comms. > > Navigation is a different matter, and as Alan says Loran > is vulnerable, perhaps not quite as vulnerable as civilian > GPS, but certainly more vulnerable than seems to be claimed. > > Stewart/G3YSX > > > -- Andy G4JNT www.scrbg.org/g4jnt