Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-ma02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 362AF380000A0; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1U5ZP5-0002vH-3V for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:17:27 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1U5ZP4-0002v8-8M for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:17:26 +0000 Received: from smtpa1.mediabeam.com ([194.25.41.13]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1U5ZP1-0002TR-7c for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:17:25 +0000 Received: from IMAP1 (balancer7.mediabeam.com [10.100.1.80]) by smtpa1.mediabeam.com (8.13.8/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r1DAH2Gj027389 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:17:02 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:16:57 +0100 From: uwe-jannsen@kabelmail.de To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Halldor, what abt your VLF grabber? can you switch it on too? GL Uwe/dj8wx txing on 8970.0225Hz [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [194.25.41.13 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: ea6d85a53e31aad43b971253a5c6867b Subject: Re: LF: TF grabber Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----047C31029A314FA9B34A28221B676D5E" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,NO_EXPERIENCE, NO_REAL_NAME,PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d600a511b686365c5 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ------047C31029A314FA9B34A28221B676D5E Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Halldor, what abt your VLF grabber? can you switch it on too? GL Uwe/dj8wx txing on 8970=2E0225Hz Von: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg Gesendet: 12=2E02=2E2013 21:39 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg Betreff: LF: TF grabber The TF-grabber is most of the time active on LF=2E In the coming days I will do some changes to my RX-setup so there migh= t be some days when it will be offline=2E I am always willing to switch between LF and MF on demand and if I spo= t some interesting activity=2E 73 Halld=F3r TF3HZ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group= @blacksheep=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Alan Melia Sent: 12=2E febr=FAar 2013 16:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg Subject: Re: Re: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - ho= w slow should we go? Hi Marco I guess you have a long land path to TF and some big mountain= s in the way :-)) I suppose there could be weather probs in TF at this = time of year=2E I'm not really sure what the status of these sites is a= t present=2E Keep trying ! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From:=20 To:=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:13 PM Subject: R: Re: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how= slow should we go? Hi Alan, of course we are all joking and support Stefan hoping that new positiv= e datas can give more thoughts! By the way I'm still struggling sometime because I'm not able to leave= a trace on the TF grabber although at the same distance was able to le= ave nice signals on the Haifa grabber=2E=2E=2E (no chance to have again= active it?) so=2E=2E=2Ego Stefan go! GL 73, Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: alan=2Emelia@btinternet=2Ecom Data: 12-feb-2013 15=2E42 A:=20 Ogg: Re: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slow s= hould we go? Hi Marco a case of "never mind the theory, show me the data " :-)) Jay= 's plot shows what I was thinking about quite well=2E Markus's signal i= s weaker and suffers fade decode problems, but Stefan's signal is stron= ger and shows no fading=2E I think this is due to the "non-linearity" o= f the waterfall display=2E From experience of my use it only takes a ch= ange in strength of about 3dB to go from "M" to "dogbones"=2E Thus my i= dea that the fading at distance is much shallower=2E=2E=2E=2E=2Eit does= nt make it any less difficult to decypher, but you may only need anothe= r dB or so for fully readable once you display on the trace=2E You can lay off time against improved readability by as somone asked "= stacking" modes, like Wolf used to do=2E This it does need accurate tim= ing, and is akin to how amateur astronomers produce such spectacular pi= ctures with backyard telescopes=2E CW ops do it as well(!!) =2E=2E=2E=2E= you know "ur 599 pse rpt all" :-)) Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From:=20 To:=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 1:30 PM Subject: R: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slo= w should we go? On the theory hornets cannot fly=2E=2E Let's dream again Stefan! 73, Marco IK1HSS ----Messaggio originale---- Da: hellozerohellozero@hotmail=2Ecom Data: 12-feb-2013 4=2E27 A: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg" Ogg: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slow should we go? I would agree Alan that on the longer hauls I still see a more rapid fade pattern but not the couple of mins typical of the shorter hop stuff - - I sort of got used to "20 mins" for 137Khz on the Transpolar and Trans Siberian paths into China from Eu, but it was a little more than "5 mins" at 500Khz - that sort of aligns on what I saw at sea on the Antarctic/South Atlantic paths on 500 back to Portishead path back long long ago, and what I have heard from here and Fiji into Oz and NZ - but I also recall the fades became more vertical and shorter during the more disturbed periods - again this way very dependant on the path profile and where it and what it crossed on the Rhum line geomag and whether it was North/South East West - again cutting across the "lines= " was far more problematic=2E I still scratch my head to see the MUF map of the world and how it looks more like a complicated barometric pressure map with depressions and High pressure areas :-) What I would do is not to discount the long periods out of hand at 500 - I have a tingly feeling that dot 30 is as slow as I would go but Ive been prove= d wrong countless times :-) What I do know is to date that bar Japan to Alaska (apart from Canada/USA) no signals have reached the levels that my old CW ears could decode, and truthfully I dont think they would ever get to that level at our ERP levels and lack of the salty stuff=2E Mind you I would love to set up an MF station here on Maui - Ive already picked my spot and the tower I would steal (Junction of Lahaina/Kihei road at South Kihei)=2E Im trying to twist a certain arm to install MF on our expedition ship, but we dont have a lot of space for the normal type of array Im used to=2E We will see Laurence KL 1X/KH62AZT > From: alan=2Emelia@btinternet=2Ecom > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:09:31 +0000 > Subject: LF: Re: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m an= d tonites QRSS-60 > > Hi Stefan I think that maybe the right approach=2E I think you may f= ind that > the "perceived wisdom" on fading rate v QRSS speed is based on relatively > short paths=2E I suspect it may well be very different at real DX range, that > is several hops=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E>6000km=2E There obviously is so= me sort of a problem > because the wavelength is much shorter than 136kHz so the phase changes more > rapidly with ionisation and "apparent refection height" but you need two > "modes" of nearly equal strength to get extinction=2E This may not b= e so > prevalent at long ranges on 470kHz=2E The experiment will be very interesting > if you can start to leave traces on distant grabbers=2E > > Alan > G3NYK > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "Stefan Sch=E4fer"=20 > To: ; "Vasily Savchenko" ; "Douglas D=2E Williams" > ; "Andy - KU4XR" ; "Edgar J Twining" >=20 > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:57 PM > Subject: LF: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m and tonites > QRSS-60 > > > > MF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-) > > > > Edgar in Tasmania was recently asking if i have some plans about DX > > experiments on 630m=2E Well that is a path of > 16000 km=2E Howeve= r we do not > > have real experience if that is easier than 2200m or rather impossible=2E > > > > At least i know that there was not even a single decode by UA0SNV in my MF > > WSPR and QRSS tests so far, while it is no problem on LF (OK my MF signal > > is weaker than my LF signal)=2E Thus i would guess that it is much harder to > > get some traces of a signal on 630m=2E We will try anyway! > > > > I'm starting to run a QRSS-60 transmission on 476=2E172 kHz (+- a = few Hz) > > for the night=2E Maybe someone across the pond will catch somethin= g=2E We, or > > at least i still have no experience about the QSB problem on very slow > > QRSS transmissions on MF=2E It would be interesting to see a spectrogram=2E > > > > On air in a few minutes=2E > > > > 73, Stefan/DK7FC > > > > PS: No, not only beacon transmissions, i've just had a > 1 hour long CW > > QSO with PA0LCE and DK6SX/p! Also contacts to OK2BVG and S57A=2E > > > > ------047C31029A314FA9B34A28221B676D5E Content-type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Halldor,

what abt your VLF grabber? can you switch it on too?

GL
Uwe/dj8wx txing on 8970=2E0225Hz

Von: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg
Gesendet: 12=2E02=2E2013 21:39
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg
Betreff: LF: TF grabber

The TF-grabber is most of the time active on LF=2E
In the coming days I will do some changes to my RX-setup so there might= be some days when it will be offline=2E
I am always willing to switch between LF and MF on demand and if I spot= some interesting activity=2E

73
Halldór
TF3HZ

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep=2Eorg] On Behalf Of Alan Melia
Sent: 12=2E febrúar 2013 16:57
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg
Subject: Re: Re: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how= slow should we go?

Hi Marco I guess you have a long land path to TF and some big mountains= in the way :-)) I suppose there could be weather probs in TF at this t= ime of year=2E I'm not really sure what the status of these sites is at= present=2E Keep trying !
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:13 PM
Subject: R: Re: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how = slow should we go?


Hi Alan,
of course we are all joking and support Stefan hoping that new positive= datas can give more thoughts!
By the way I'm still struggling sometime because I'm not able to leave = a trace on the TF grabber although at the same distance was able to lea= ve nice signals on the Haifa grabber=2E=2E=2E (no chance to have again = active it?)

so=2E=2E=2Ego Stefan go! GL

73, Marco IK1HSS
----Messaggio originale----
Da: alan=2Emelia@btinternet=2Ecom
Data: 12-feb-2013 15=2E42
A:
Ogg: Re: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slow s= hould we go?

Hi Marco a case of "never mind the theory, show me the data " :-)) Jay'= s plot shows what I was thinking about quite well=2E Markus's signal is= weaker and suffers fade decode problems, but Stefan's signal is strong= er and shows no fading=2E I think this is due to the "non-linearity" of= the waterfall display=2E From experience of my use it only takes a cha= nge in strength of about 3dB to go from "M" to "dogbones"=2E Thus my id= ea that the fading at distance is much shallower=2E=2E=2E=2E=2Eit doesn= t make it any less difficult to decypher, but you may only need another= dB or so for fully readable once you display on the trace=2E
You can lay off time against improved readability by as somone asked "s= tacking" modes, like Wolf used to do=2E This it does need accurate timi= ng, and is akin to how amateur astronomers produce such spectacular pic= tures with backyard telescopes=2E CW ops do it as well(!!) =2E=2E=2E=2E= you know "ur 599 pse rpt all" :-))

Alan
G3NYK

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 1:30 PM
Subject: R: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slow= should we go?


On the theory hornets cannot fly=2E=2E
Let's dream again Stefan!
73, Marco IK1HSS

----Messaggio originale----
Da: hellozerohellozero@hotmail=2Ecom
Data: 12-feb-2013 4=2E27
A: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg"
Ogg: LF: Was Considerations about wide DX experiments - how slow
should we go?


I would agree Alan that on the longer hauls I still see a more rapid fade pattern but not the couple of mins typical of the shorter hop
stuff - - I sort of got used to "20 mins" for 137Khz on the Transpolar<= br /> and Trans Siberian paths into China from Eu, but it was a little more than "5 mins" at 500Khz - that sort of aligns on what I saw at sea on the Antarctic/South Atlantic paths on 500 back to Portishead path back<= br /> long long ago, and what I have heard from here and Fiji into Oz and NZ<= br /> - but I also recall the fades became more vertical and shorter during the more disturbed periods - again this way very dependant on the path<= br /> profile and where it and what it crossed on the Rhum line geomag and whether it was North/South East West - again cutting across the "lines"=
was far more problematic=2E I still scratch my head to see the MUF ma= p
of the world and how it looks more like a complicated barometric
pressure map with depressions and High pressure areas :-) What I would=
do is not to discount the long periods out of hand at 500 - I have a tingly feeling that dot 30 is as slow as I would go but Ive been proved=
wrong countless times :-) What I do know is to date that bar Japan to Alaska (apart from Canada/USA) no signals have reached the levels that<= br /> my old CW ears could decode, and truthfully I dont think they would
ever get to that level at our ERP levels and lack of the salty stuff=2E=
Mind you I would love to set up an MF station here on Maui - Ive
already picked my spot and the tower I would steal (Junction of
Lahaina/Kihei road at South Kihei)=2E Im trying to twist a certain arm=
to install MF on our expedition ship, but we dont have a lot of space for the normal type of array Im used to=2E We will see Laurence KL
1X/KH62AZT
> From: alan=2Emelia@btinternet=2Ecom
> To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep=2Eorg
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:09:31 +0000
> Subject: LF: Re: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m = and
tonites QRSS-60
>
> Hi Stefan I think that maybe the right approach=2E I think you may= find
that
> the "perceived wisdom" on fading rate v QRSS speed is based on
relatively
> short paths=2E I suspect it may well be very different at real DX<= br /> range, that
> is several hops=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E>6000km=2E There obviously = is some sort of a
problem
> because the wavelength is much shorter than 136kHz so the phase changes more
> rapidly with ionisation and "apparent refection height" but you ne= ed
two
> "modes" of nearly equal strength to get extinction=2E This may not= be
so
> prevalent at long ranges on 470kHz=2E The experiment will be very<= br /> interesting
> if you can start to leave traces on distant grabbers=2E
>
> Alan
> G3NYK
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Schäfer"
> To: ; "Vasily Savchenko" com>;
> "Garry and Linda Hess" ; "Douglas D=2E Will= iams"
> ; "Andy - KU4XR" ; "Edgar J=
Twining"
>
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:57 PM
> Subject: LF: Considerations about wide DX experiments on 630m and<= br /> tonites
> QRSS-60
>
>
> > MF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
> >
> > Edgar in Tasmania was recently asking if i have some plans ab= out
DX
> > experiments on 630m=2E Well that is a path of > 16000 km=2E= However we
do not
> > have real experience if that is easier than 2200m or rather impossible=2E
> >
> > At least i know that there was not even a single decode by UA= 0SNV
in my MF
> > WSPR and QRSS tests so far, while it is no problem on LF (OK = my MF
signal
> > is weaker than my LF signal)=2E Thus i would guess that it is= much
harder to
> > get some traces of a signal on 630m=2E We will try anyway! > >
> > I'm starting to run a QRSS-60 transmission on 476=2E172 kHz (= +- a few
Hz)
> > for the night=2E Maybe someone across the pond will catch som= ething=2E
We, or
> > at least i still have no experience about the QSB problem on = very
slow
> > QRSS transmissions on MF=2E It would be interesting to see a<= br /> spectrogram=2E
> >
> > On air in a few minutes=2E
> >
> > 73, Stefan/DK7FC
> >
> > PS: No, not only beacon transmissions, i've just had a > 1= hour
long CW
> > QSO with PA0LCE and DK6SX/p! Also contacts to OK2BVG and S57A= =2E
> >
>
>
------047C31029A314FA9B34A28221B676D5E--