Return-Path: Received: from mtain-df12.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-df12.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.224]) by air-me03.mail.aol.com (v128.3) with ESMTP id MAILINME031-8ba84bc9db182fa; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:00:24 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-df12.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 2C66938001660; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 12:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1O3AQ1-000851-MT for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:58:53 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1O3AQ0-00084s-Sy for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:58:52 +0100 Received: from smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([66.196.96.86]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1O3APx-00027K-HW for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2010 16:58:52 +0100 Received: (qmail 99446 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2010 15:58:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=snet.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MimeOLE:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator; b=xtyVk+YAndzKiUrXJ2kuec3/fuFvMqrTWUSb3xqSIraEtgz4RQGk0oCfgPgt9DBAbCNMO+qZc/g+2FTpD5a3/a/pv34mwFUKG9bAkogEJJFNZPX+nZano8Q5jzlr1mPHJOfnDWAQrpDsrgyv92joFZ1YZQ162op+zPiV/3SZlFU= ; Received: from MAINDESK (paulc@75.58.180.90 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 2010 08:58:41 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: .XXmOBOswBCkuxW404eTLsnd.RdCQPge3WAF X-YMail-OSG: 64TxzkEVM1lR..GNE2L7Fj9BvZm.aWHNPBSxdhtzjlTNlp9FluM7hhIdylQ5Xl4dpvWgxYzPFuYrLf2qhDW7d483PY43rE3._ke_.PyefBbG.Hwjqft1EeLYiklqqQ4dShscr5SReRUy26SVBcvaN0qRtA9i6ZrQShgNvPJzw5G2RnLh9J6fV2qr.A8f39DILJbmIMrI8Y0MEVpWc3WWseBasvNfxTuTES8ZRYlgzf3kGOX_wfgKsYVOJS.yeB1wS6cKdWnf1TCX5rQbgVXuYQVHdJsMKR.TH0PBYef0h9c0BEsoASySWTArZNrppFkYkNVvLjZPUhWIyz8WKjVGvkobZ992sl2coHIZScCKnghtcCnedo1fT2Vb66Ij_xeCX28xC.7DDxuqq0rJhWJzyvVYgDq_TJO9v8rTBZf8_JTAFC9IZZgRHmPWiy_P3ClO_FQzU2t9y4ewsQY- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Paul A. Cianciolo" To: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:58:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1BE0@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=0.879,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: RE: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005D_01CADE25.539C7840" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/57566 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40e04bc9db142102 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01CADE25.539C7840 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_005E_01CADE25.539C7840" ------=_NextPart_001_005E_01CADE25.539C7840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stefan, Thank you. =20 Power applied is 54 watts from a public address system audio amplifier= .=20 This is the overall antenna system impedance. The DC resistance of the coil is about 80 to 90 Ohms I wonder if you can point me to the schematic of your final amplifier? It would be nice to learn from amplifier building experience. What is your over all system impedance impedance? I see the coil is 283 ohms Also do you ground radials, and flat aluminum show you an antenna curr= ent difference? Thank you=20 PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On= Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fer Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:18 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: AW: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Hello Paul,=20 Also congrats to the QRSS3 5km distance! :-) Who is the next station= that can receive your signal? 1nF / 345mH sounds very good! 1250 Ohm, is that the overall (loss) resistance? If not, how much power do you have to apply to get the 200= mA and how do you measure the current? Have you tried to connect your house mains to the VLF earth? I would= try that! ;-) If the current increases with house earth connected to the= system, try to reduce the power so that I is 200mA again and check, if your si= gnal is as stong as before (at the RX side) to check if the radiation resis= tance was reduced by this step. Again choosing the same power than in the QR= SS3 QSO will show the antenna efficiency change... Your coils look good on the photos! I would estimate that the coils= can stand at least 50kV rms. Paul, you have to make QRO after checking who= could be the next receiving station, hi ;-)=20 Wish you good luck and fun! BTW: Do you have a good VLF / Dreamers band/ RX? As you know, i will= try to get this 300m vertical permission! I already have the confirmation= of my insurance ;-) Stefan / DK7FC ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ -- Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianc= iolo Gesendet: Sa 17.04.2010 16:54 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: RE: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Hi Rik, I think that I must have omitted something. The blue barrel is the 277 mhy not counting the coils on top of the barrel. Total L was 345 mhy which was too much and forced operation to 8890H= z Still this is close to 1 nF No not yet I did not try radials yet and will make this step soon For some reason the bridge I made for 9Kz is not working, that needs= to be fixed. Then I can experiment with ground radials rods etc. PauLC=20 W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Rik Strobbe Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 10:30 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: RE: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Hello Paul, congrats on your achievement. Based on L =3D 0.277H and f =3D 8890Hz the antenna capacitance is= 1.16nF. You must have an impressive amount of wire up in the air. Regarding "ground" : did you try radials ?=20 73, Rik ON7YD=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Paul A. Cianciolo [paulc@snet.net] Verzonden: zaterdag 17 april 2010 15:53 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: RE: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Markus=20 Valued commentary as always. Plans are to continue making improvem= ents in the station.=20 What are your feeling about the ground at 9 KHz? Currently I am using 3 2 meter ground rods spaced 2 meters apart= and 1 meter distant from the concrete basement wall of my shack. This setup is not optimum I understand and was never intended to= be final ground system for my regular ham station. As a very quick and crude test I pounded an aluminum pole into the= earth 2 meters deep near the 9 KHz coil. When this was connected to the existing ground there was a very sm= all increase in the current meter. Antenna system impedance here is about 1250 Ohms with and antenna current of approx. 200 ma. Lots of work to do!!! I will make another post on grounds to the group as well. Thank you PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:29 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Dear Paul and Jay, this is an excellent result, well done!=20 The crossover between reactive nearfield (E ~ r^-3) and farfield (r^-1) occurs at lambda/2/pi =3D 5.3 km. As you seem to have quite a= bit of margin there, your signal will be detectable very significantly beyond= that. Assuming otherwise equal receive conditions, QRSS-120 should get you= more than 6 times further than QRSS-3. Best wishes, Markus (DF6NM) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Warren Ziegler=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 8:05 PM Subject: Re: LF: Dreamers Band update from W1VLF Paul, Great work! Nice looking coil! How much power can you= crank through it? At 5kM, I believe that you are still in the near field (9kHz wavelength is 33km), so signal will fall off at the 3rd power= of distance until you reach far-field conditions. --=20 73 Warren K2ORS WD2XGJ WD2XSH/23 WE2XEB/2 WE2XGR/1 at 1:51 PM, Paul A. Cianciolo wrote: > Hello Folks, > > Today we made our first outdoor transmission on VLF. > > The system resonance forced the transmissions to take place= on 8890 Hz at > least until I can get a variometer worked up. > > The distance is only 5 KM but the signal is quite good on QR= SS3. > > I can only wonder how far the signal would go using QRSS 120= ??? > > Please comment if you can, this a great learning experience= for me > > Thank you > > PauLC > W1VLF > > http://www.rescueelectronics.com/9-Kilohertz.html > ------=_NextPart_001_005E_01CADE25.539C7840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stefan,
 
T= hank you. =20
P= ower applied is=20 54 watts from a public address system audio amplifier. <= /DIV>
T= his is the=20 overall antenna system impedance.
T= he DC resistance=20 of the coil is about 80 to 90  Ohms
I= wonder if you=20 can point me to the schematic of your final amplifier?
I= t would be nice=20 to learn from amplifier building experience.
 
W= hat is your over=20 all system impedance impedance?
I= see the coil is=20 283 ohms
 
A= lso do you=20 ground radials, and flat aluminum show you an antenna current=20 difference?
 
T= hank you=20
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Stef= an Sch=E4fer=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefa= n=20 Sch=E4fer
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:18 AM
To= :=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: AW: LF: Dreamers Ban= d update=20 from W1VLF

Hello Pau= l,
 
Also congrats to the QRSS= 3 5km distance!=20 :-) Who is the next station that can receive your signal?
 
1nF / 345mH sounds very= good! 1250 Ohm,=20 is that the overall (loss) resistance? If not, how much power do you= have to=20 apply to get the 200mA and how do you measure the current?
 
Have you tried to connect= your house=20 mains to the VLF earth? I would try that! ;-) If the current increas= es with=20 house earth connected to the system, try to reduce the power so that= I is=20 200mA again and check, if your signal is as stong as before (at the= RX side)=20 to check if the radiation resistance was reduced by this step. Again= choosing=20 the same power than in the QRSS3 QSO will show the antenna efficienc= y=20 change...
 
Your coils look good on= the photos! I=20 would estimate that the coils can stand at least 50kV rms. Paul, you= have to=20 make QRO after checking who could be the next receiving station, hi= ;-)=20
 
Wish you good luck and fu= n!
 
BTW: Do you have a good= VLF / Dreamers=20 band/ RX? As you know, i will try to get this 300m vertical permissi= on! I=20 already have the confirmation of my insurance ;-)
 
Stefan / DK7FC

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org im=20 Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo
Gesendet: Sa 17.04.2010=20 16:54
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff:= RE: LF:=20 Dreamers Band update from W1VLF

Hi=20 Rik,
 
I think that I=20 must have omitted something.
The blue barrel=20 is the 277 mhy not counting the coils on top of the=20 barrel.
Total L was 345=20 mhy which was too much and forced operation to 8890Hz<= /DIV>
Still this is=20 close to 1 nF
 
No not yet I=20 did not try radials yet and will make this step soon
For some=20 reason the bridge I made for 9Kz is not working, that needs to be=20 fixed.
Then I can experiment with ground radials rods= =20 etc.
 
PauLC=20
W1VLF
 
 
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Rik= =20 Strobbe
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 10:30 AM
To:<= /B>=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: RE: LF: Dreamers Ban= d update=20 from W1VLF

Hello Paul,
 
congrats on your achievement.
Based on L =3D 0.277H and f =3D= 8890Hz the antenna=20 capacitance is 1.16nF. You must have an impressive amoun= t of wire=20 up in the air.
Regarding "ground" : did you try= =20 radials ? 
 
73, Rik  ON7YD =
 
Van:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep= .org]=20 namens Paul A. Cianciolo [paulc@snet.net]
Verzonden: zat= erdag 17=20 april 2010 15:53
Aan:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: RE: LF: Dreamers= Band=20 update from W1VLF

Markus=20
 
Valued=20 commentary as always. Plans are to continue making improvements in= the=20 station. 
 
What are your=20 feeling about the ground at 9 KHz?
 
Currently I=20 am using 3   2 meter ground rods spaced 2 meters apart&n= bsp; and 1=20 meter distant from the concrete basement wall of my=20 shack.
 
This setup is=20 not optimum I understand and was never intended to be final ground= system=20 for my regular ham station.
 
As a very=20 quick and crude test I pounded an aluminum pole into the earth 2= meters deep=20 near the 9 KHz coil.
When this was=20 connected to the existing ground there was a very small increase= in the=20 current meter.
 
Antenna=20 system impedance here is about 1250 Ohms  with and antenna cu= rrent of=20 approx. 200 ma.
Lots of work=20 to do!!!
 
I will make=20 another post on grounds to the group as well.
 
Thank=20 you
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
 
 
 
 
<= FONT size=3D2> 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Mar= kus=20 Vester
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 4:29 PM
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Dreamers= Band update=20 from W1VLF

Dear Paul and Jay,
 
this is an excellent result, we= ll done!=20
 
The crossover between reac= tive nearfield=20 (E ~ r^-3) and farfield (r^-1) occurs at lambda/2/pi= =3D 5.3=20 km. As you seem to have quite a bit of margin there,= your signal=20 will be detectable very significantly beyond that. Ass= uming=20 otherwise equal receive conditions, QRSS-120 should get you more= than 6=20 times further than QRSS-3.
 
Best wishes,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
----- Original Message -----=
From:<= /B> Warren Ziegler=20
Sent: Friday, April 16,= 2010 8:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Dreame= rs Band=20 update from W1VLF

Paul,

  =    =20 Great work! Nice looking coil!  How much power can you cr= ank=20 through it?
At 5kM, I believe that you are still in the nea= r field=20 (9kHz
wavelength is 33km), so signal will fall off at the= 3rd power=20 of
distance until you reach far-field conditions.

--=
73=20 Warren=20 K2ORS
         = ;      =20 WD2XGJ
        &nbs= p;      =20 WD2XSH/23
        &= nbsp;      =20 WE2XEB/2
        &n= bsp;      =20 WE2XGR/1


 at 1:51 PM, Paul A. Cianciolo <paulc@snet.net> wrote= :
> Hello=20 Folks,
>
> Today we made our first outdoor transmi= ssion on=20 VLF.
>
> The system resonance forced the transmiss= ions to=20 take place on 8890 Hz at
> least until I can get a vario= meter=20 worked up.
>
> The distance is only 5 KM but the= signal is=20 quite good on QRSS3.
>
> I can only wonder how far= the=20 signal would go using QRSS 120???
>
> Please comme= nt if you=20 can, this a great learning experience for me
>
>= Thank=20 you
>
> PauLC
> W1VLF
>
> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/9-Kilohertz= .html
>
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