Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dj06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dj06.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.19.187.142]) by air-df06.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDF064-5ef94bbb7a968; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:16:54 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-dj06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6512538000111; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NzDJV-0001Zv-OS for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:15:49 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NzDJU-0001Zm-RP for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:15:48 +0100 Received: from smtp105.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([76.13.13.244]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NzDJR-0005cB-C4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:15:48 +0100 Received: (qmail 71936 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2010 18:15:36 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=snet.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=0luZmEjpDSBnB2eWB2/6sKROZE8EztXM27tewXJFBdGFB0TPTpfITbDTRy/ekYniACe+ljjBs5TnSQ6r1SRkRRYMPon2e7BzRbGITAN+VL8AvlkroCG5xAIgrthn/v9l9HT/VkuMTORBOkCLAUIaWesy4Q9jeC7ZS0UMjIvD6VM= ; Received: from adsl-76-192-4-39.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net (paulc@76.192.4.39 with login) by smtp105.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Apr 2010 11:15:36 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: .XXmOBOswBCkuxW404eTLsnd.RdCQPge3WAF X-YMail-OSG: u2Ba7BwVM1lpFoav6EH0pZvk2vV3xL.2YjOVB_4s.pGqGomcM2JV_JKdvvCs2ShGIpApNsPYffwtLgApIaEIVuo0Rq3Llkgn2oNZkdQ8Yhh6r2hUAwBa198gKgBb42j5Hd8qe8I7WSKYNtleHiDYR6RDAg.lRuQMYXZOVpApLox50dKuFsumlN3bIMeJ1JMD8mSACP0R.mYQ5EsFk5mBdUINqqkNMKv14UKhWQAO8n4Pp2sHJB2IVOLVzE0KPKHcDLa58fTfjQWUAnmP4py2VNg1nc4YKOrYqGdYNcs9wOcArA1TC_Iop3zNiwDsxxvlt8WXQ69ghy3Ch8ao3pybeqRNoxMM5w-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Paul A. Cianciolo" To: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:15:42 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4BBAFE41.4020401@iup.uni-heidelberg.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=0.879,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES=0.651,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: OK I am convinced 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance near the top. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0089_01CAD59C.05BFF0C0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039cdbc9d0b4bbb7a9414d6 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01CAD59C.05BFF0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LF: Activity 3 Mar 2010Stefan, Rik, Dreamers Band Folks. Thank you for all the references on places to look for info on the LF/= VLF antennas and the elevated coil. Shortly I will leave to check out several possible formers, at the lo= cal hardware store. The plan is to assess buckets, garbage pails, storage bins etc to be= used as formers in an effort to try to get as much "L" as possible at the top= of the tower. I have a rope and pulley at 120 feet and it can easily lift 10 or 20= LBS. Still I will have some "L" on the ground to tune the antenna. The transmitter will be an amplifier capable of 100 Watts RMS to start= with. Exciter will be a GPS locked HP 3336B Generator. The matching transformer is 2 # 77 toroid cores 2.40" each stacked and= would with a 8 to 1 turns accessible so I can adjust the ratio if I need to. Also I will order some delrin rod for insulators, now I am using nylon I think that the antenna will stay as it is now without improvement (additional top hat) until I get my first signal to Jay W1VD who is= 5 KM distant. Thank you all for the help. I will take pictures and post them as the effort continues. PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4f= er Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 5:26 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductan= ce near the top. Paul, If you have not yet read much about LF/VLF antennas (for TX) i recom= mend the website of Rik/ON7YD: http://www.strobbe.eu/on7yd/136ant/ There, you get all basic necessary informations for becoming QRV on LF/VLF! It is published in a understandable way, also with some exampl= es for calculations. I have read it several times when i started becoming QRV in 2003 :-)= Maybe you already know many of the informations but it's just nice to read! There is not really a big difference between 137 and 9 kHz if we thi= nk about becoming QRV, except this: Voltages are much more higher Radiation resistances are much lower Inductors needed are much higher (and take much more time to wind ;-= ) ) Earth losses and coil losses are much higher PA losses are lower (if switched) Propagation on VLF seems to be more efficient Easy to built PAs Lower influence of the skin effect (positive in wires, negative in= the earth) No limitations of TX power or ERP ;-) ...and so on :-) 73, Stefan/DK7FC Am 05.04.2010 22:35, schrieb Paul A. Cianciolo: Stefan, Thank you for the explanation I will read several more times . To better understand. Thank you again PauLC -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.or= g]On Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fer Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:51 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: AW: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance= near the top. Paul, There will be a benefit for you, so if it is done easily, do it!= When it can be done easily, why can't you bring up all the L as high as pos= sible? Imagine the E-field lines that come out of the antenna wire. You= can imagine that by an analogical example: A garden hose, in the form of the antenna wire construction, wit= h many holes in it. Imagine you have a compressor on the bottom and connect= the hose there. The water pressure is equivalent to the voltage, the compr= essor has the function to increase the pressure; the coil has the function= to increase the voltage. The hose diameter is assumed to be very big agai= nst the hole diameter so the pressure is almost the same at each part of= the hose (even at the end). Your goal is to bring as much water (water [liters]is here equivalent to electrical charge [As](absolute value))= as possible through the vertical part of the hose without loosing to much= on the way to the top. This is because, in the electrical case, you want= to fed as much current as possible through the radiation resistance to radiat= e the power I^2*Rrad. The water (charge) that comes out of the hose in the vertical part before reaching the maximum vertical height is not cross= ing the upper part of the radiation resistance and thus the ERP is smaller= . So, it is the best to place the compressor/coil as high as possible since= if the pressure/voltage in the vertical section is smaller (like before the compressor/coil) there is not so much water pressed through the holes= in the vertical section! And if you increase the horizontal section of the construction,= there are more holes in sum above the compressor and thus more water is pres= sed through them at a given pressure. So, the more holes the more water,= or charge (=3Dcurrent per cycle) in the vertical part. This analogical model can explain even more but surely there are= also things that cannot be compared (like a AC water flow ;-); no closed circuit... ). But for a first imagination it is useful in my point of= view ;-) If you place all the L on the tower it will be optimal. Then, yo= u could use a simple wire that connects to your earth system without the= need for a distance to other metallic parts, since there is no HV on this= wire any more! That makes it easier even more! You can inject the power by applying a isolated primary on the= coil and connect it to your PA in the shack by a loudspeaker cable. Or you= need a transformer and inject it on the bottom of the wire between earth and= lower part of the coil. That may be even a litte easier... A later step will be to reduce the earth resistance but you can= do that after starting to come up on the band since there will be no chan= ges to the coil, maybe just to the output ratio of the PA transformer. Which= PA will you use? Best 73 and much fun! Stefan/DK7FC ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo Gesendet: So 04.04.2010 22:28 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: LF: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance= near the top. Stefan On page 60 and 61 of the Low Frequency Experimenters Handbook Pe= ter Dodd RSGB there is an example putting a coil near the top of the ante= nna In this case the transmitter is on 137 Khz and a of a portion (1= /2) of the "L" needed to resonate was moved near the top. According to measur= ements by Rik Strobbe ON7YD an increase of 4 to 5 db was measured. Do you think it would be worth the effort to put 1/4 of the tota= l "L" needed near the top I could do that very easily. PaulC W1VLF ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01CAD59C.05BFF0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LF: Activity 3 Mar 2010
S= tefan,=20 Rik,  Dreamers Band Folks.
 
 
T= hank you for all=20 the references on places to look for info on the LF/VLF antennas and= the=20 elevated coil.
S= hortly I will=20 leave to check out several possible formers,  at the local hardwa= re=20 store.
 
T= he plan is to=20 assess buckets, garbage pails, storage bins etc to be used as for= mers in=20 an effort to try to get as much "L" as possible at the= top of the=20 tower. 
I= have a rope and=20 pulley at 120 feet and it can easily lift 10 or 20 LBS.<= /DIV>
 
S= till I will have=20 some "L" on the ground to tune the antenna.
 
T= he transmitter=20 will be an amplifier capable of 100 Watts RMS to start with.
E= xciter will be a=20 GPS locked HP 3336B Generator.
T= he matching=20 transformer is 2 # 77 toroid cores 2.40" each stacked and would with= a 8 to=20 1 turns accessible so I can adjust the ratio if I need to.
 
A= lso I will order=20 some delrin rod for insulators, now I am using nylon
 
I= think that the=20 antenna will stay as it is now without improvement (additional top hat= ) =20 until I get my first signal to Jay W1VD  who is 5 KM=20 distant.
 
T= hank you all for=20 the help.
I= will take=20 pictures and post them as the effort continues.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefa= n=20 Sch=E4fer
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 5:26 AM
To:<= /B>=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: RE: RE: W1VL= F 9 Khz=20 Antenna update Putting inductance near the top.

= Paul,=20

If you have not yet read much about LF/VLF antennas (for TX)= i=20 recommend the website of Rik/ON7YD: http://www.strobbe.e= u/on7yd/136ant/
There,=20 you get all basic necessary informations for becoming QRV on LF/VLF!= It is=20 published in a understandable way, also with some examples for=20 calculations.
I have read it several times when i started becomin= g QRV in=20 2003 :-) Maybe you already know many of the informations but it's ju= st nice to=20 read!

There is not really a big difference between 137 and 9= kHz if we=20 think about becoming QRV, except this:
Voltages are much more=20 higher
Radiation resistances are much lower
Inductors needed= are much=20 higher (and take much more time to wind ;-) )
Earth losses and co= il losses=20 are much higher

PA losses are lower (if switched)
Propagat= ion on VLF=20 seems to be more efficient
Easy to built PAs
Lower influence= of the skin=20 effect (positive in wires, negative in the earth)
No limitations= of TX=20 power or ERP ;-)

...and so on :-)


73,=20 Stefan/DK7FC


Am 05.04.2010 22:35, schrieb Paul A. Ciancio= lo:=20
Stefan,
 
Thank you for=20 the explanation I will read several more times .
To better=20 understand.
 
Thank you=20 again
 
PauLC
 
-----Original Message-----
From:= Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rs= gb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On=20 Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fer
Sent: Monday, April 05,= 2010 9:51=20 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject:=20 AW: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance near the= =20 top.

Paul,=
 
There will be a benef= it for you, so=20 if it is done easily, do it! When it can be done easily, why can= 't you=20 bring up all the L as high as possible?
 
Imagine the E-field= lines that come=20 out of the antenna wire. You can imagine that by an analogica= l=20 example:
A garden hose, in the= form of the=20 antenna wire construction, with many holes in it. Imagine you ha= ve a=20 compressor on the bottom and connect the hose there. The wa= ter=20 pressure is equivalent to the voltage, the compressor has the fu= nction to=20 increase the pressure; the coil has the function to increase the= voltage.=20 The hose diameter is assumed to be very big against the hole dia= meter so=20 the pressure is almost the same at each part of the hose (even= at the=20 end). Your goal is to bring as much water (water [liters]is here= =20 equivalent to electrical charge [As](absolute value)) as possibl= e through=20 the vertical part of the hose without loosing to much on th= e way to=20 the top. This is because, in the electrical case, you want to fe= d as much=20 current as possible through the radiation resistance to radiate= the power=20 I^2*Rrad. The water (charge) that comes out of the hose in the= vertical=20 part before reaching the maximum vertical height is not crossing= the upper=20 part of the radiation resistance and thus the ERP is smaller. So= , it is=20 the best to place the compressor/coil as high as possible since= if the=20 pressure/voltage in the vertical section is smaller (like before= the=20 compressor/coil) there is not so much water pressed through the= holes in=20 the vertical section!
And if you increase= the horizontal=20 section of the construction, there are more holes in sum above= the=20 compressor and thus more water is pressed through them at a give= n=20 pressure. So, the more holes the more water, or charge (=3Dcurre= nt per=20 cycle) in the vertical part.
This analogical model= can explain=20 even more but surely there are also things that cannot be compar= ed (like a=20 AC water flow ;-); no closed circuit... ). But for a= first=20 imagination it is useful in my point of view ;-)
 
If you place all the= L on the tower=20 it will be optimal. Then, you could use a simple wire that conne= cts to=20 your earth system without the need for a distance to othe= r metallic=20 parts, since there is no HV on this wire any more! That makes it= easier=20 even more!
You can inject the po= wer by applying=20 a isolated primary on the coil and connect it to your PA in the= shack by a=20 loudspeaker cable. Or you need a transformer and inject it on th= e bottom=20 of the wire between earth and lower part of the coil. That may= be even a=20 litte easier...
 
A later step will be= to reduce the=20 earth resistance but you can do that after starting to come up= on the band=20 since there will be no changes to the coil, maybe just to the ou= tput ratio=20 of the PA transformer. Which PA will you use?
 
Best 73 and much fun!=
 
Stefan/DK7FC
Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo
Gesendet: So 04.04.20= 10=20 22:28
An: rsgb_lf_group@blackshee= p.org
Betreff:=20 LF: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance near the= =20 top.

Stefan=20
 
On page 60=20 and 61 of the Low Frequency Experimenters Handbook Peter Dodd RS= GB=20  there is an example putting a coil near the top of the=20 antenna
In this=20 case the transmitter is on 137 Khz and a of a portion (1/2) of= the "L"=20 needed to resonate was moved near the top. According to mea= surements=20 by Rik Strobbe ON7YD  an increase of 4 to 5 db  was=20 measured.
 
Do you=20 think it would be worth the effort to put 1/4 of the total "L"= needed near=20 the top
I could do=20 that very easily.
 
PaulC
W1VLF
 
 
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