Return-Path: Received: from mtain-me03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-me03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.139]) by air-mf04.mail.aol.com (v128.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMF044-8be84bba3bcc53; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:36:44 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-me03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 98D1038000073; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Nys5B-0004BP-D4 for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:35:37 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Nys5A-0004BF-PK for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:35:36 +0100 Received: from smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([76.13.13.242]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nys57-0006sX-9Y for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:35:36 +0100 Received: (qmail 86893 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2010 19:35:25 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=snet.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE:Importance:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator; b=K3C5HT79GymIsJIfVi9H3l7taejHC09DAqJxJUJTCQtzysoYjuR77v7zC/LQVqNITqg9r4O0ehBvVHsOKjddocoVWXYwH8aczWWz7e9yUkwHx6PP9INE3tZA73U0jwcVfSbbQuT3QWncb/GrfyYBC+RMGpe15qFM2ohF5c6w7Lo= ; Received: from adsl-76-192-6-128.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net (paulc@76.192.6.128 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 05 Apr 2010 12:35:24 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: .XXmOBOswBCkuxW404eTLsnd.RdCQPge3WAF X-YMail-OSG: Mm8r.QYVM1l2zrKltKsb1vDAzLMgXOp4hGxepEOM8mZM4xJNIhl5c9b0IrCZ89Bviyn1gFILFFbaHPKsC3bjDyiO2OCVv8Nh2NhnH.6djeOrbThPWwVuV5plb9mT1my7cQLI5yhs_zxNGR1WpReVyABejC7s.IRWT7oGRYsx72kToakBUbw55GZ5T1twBCG8b5oJa3aB4zBbQXLcwIpYvmRN_mwbd75N4ae1j_JerkeNGfBSvLk0UhK9hNrg3OJ9fKV6pVVsmlN7rnIU322WhnnKlW.hsnIsCFSsXLBLiMqNr415R0MQw817.5lJgiKS897tAPl1674XFY9bMrEGyM69waWZ3w-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Paul A. Cianciolo" To: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:35:30 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1BD4@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=0.879,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: RE: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance near the top. Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CAD4DE.01518B70" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/57095 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608b4bba3bca5211 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CAD4DE.01518B70 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00C9_01CAD4DE.01518B70" ------=_NextPart_001_00C9_01CAD4DE.01518B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LF: Activity 3 Mar 2010Stefan, Thank you for the explanation I will read several more times . To better understand. Thank you again PauLC -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On= Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fer Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:51 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: AW: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance near= the top. Paul,=20 There will be a benefit for you, so if it is done easily, do it! Whe= n it can be done easily, why can't you bring up all the L as high as possib= le?=20 Imagine the E-field lines that come out of the antenna wire. You can imagine that by an analogical example:=20 A garden hose, in the form of the antenna wire construction, with ma= ny holes in it. Imagine you have a compressor on the bottom and connect= the hose there. The water pressure is equivalent to the voltage, the compr= essor has the function to increase the pressure; the coil has the function= to increase the voltage. The hose diameter is assumed to be very big agai= nst the hole diameter so the pressure is almost the same at each part of= the hose (even at the end). Your goal is to bring as much water (water [liters]is here equivalent to electrical charge [As](absolute value))= as possible through the vertical part of the hose without loosing to much= on the way to the top. This is because, in the electrical case, you want= to fed as much current as possible through the radiation resistance to radiat= e the power I^2*Rrad. The water (charge) that comes out of the hose in the vertical part before reaching the maximum vertical height is not cross= ing the upper part of the radiation resistance and thus the ERP is smaller= . So, it is the best to place the compressor/coil as high as possible since= if the pressure/voltage in the vertical section is smaller (like before the compressor/coil) there is not so much water pressed through the holes= in the vertical section! And if you increase the horizontal section of the construction, ther= e are more holes in sum above the compressor and thus more water is pressed through them at a given pressure. So, the more holes the more water,= or charge (=3Dcurrent per cycle) in the vertical part. This analogical model can explain even more but surely there are als= o things that cannot be compared (like a AC water flow ;-); no closed circuit... ). But for a first imagination it is useful in my point of= view ;-) If you place all the L on the tower it will be optimal. Then, you co= uld use a simple wire that connects to your earth system without the need= for a distance to other metallic parts, since there is no HV on this wire an= y more! That makes it easier even more!=20 You can inject the power by applying a isolated primary on the coil= and connect it to your PA in the shack by a loudspeaker cable. Or you need= a transformer and inject it on the bottom of the wire between earth and= lower part of the coil. That may be even a litte easier... A later step will be to reduce the earth resistance but you can do= that after starting to come up on the band since there will be no changes= to the coil, maybe just to the output ratio of the PA transformer. Which PA= will you use? Best 73 and much fun! Stefan/DK7FC ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ -- Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianc= iolo Gesendet: So 04.04.2010 22:28 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: LF: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz Antenna update Putting inductance near= the top. Stefan=20 On page 60 and 61 of the Low Frequency Experimenters Handbook Peter= Dodd RSGB there is an example putting a coil near the top of the antenna In this case the transmitter is on 137 Khz and a of a portion (1/2)= of the "L" needed to resonate was moved near the top. According to measuremen= ts by Rik Strobbe ON7YD an increase of 4 to 5 db was measured. Do you think it would be worth the effort to put 1/4 of the total "L= " needed near the top I could do that very easily. PaulC W1VLF ------=_NextPart_001_00C9_01CAD4DE.01518B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LF: Activity 3 Mar 2010
Stefan,
 
T= hank you for the=20 explanation I will read several more times .
T= o better=20 understand.
 
T= hank you=20 again
 
PauLC
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Stef= an Sch=E4fer=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefa= n=20 Sch=E4fer
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 9:51 AM
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: AW: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz= Antenna=20 update Putting inductance near the top.

Paul,
 
There will be a benefit= for you, so if it=20 is done easily, do it! When it can be done easily, why can't you bri= ng up all=20 the L as high as possible?
 
Imagine the E-field lines= that come out=20 of the antenna wire. You can imagine that by an analogical exampl= e:=20
A garden hose, in the for= m of the antenna=20 wire construction, with many holes in it. Imagine you have a=20 compressor on the bottom and connect the hose there. The water= pressure=20 is equivalent to the voltage, the compressor has the function to inc= rease the=20 pressure; the coil has the function to increase the voltage. The hos= e diameter=20 is assumed to be very big against the hole diameter so the pressure= is almost=20 the same at each part of the hose (even at the end). Your goal is to= bring as=20 much water (water [liters]is here equivalent to electrical charge=20 [As](absolute value)) as possible through the vertical part of the= =20 hose without loosing to much on the way to the top. This is bec= ause, in=20 the electrical case, you want to fed as much current as possible thr= ough the=20 radiation resistance to radiate the power I^2*Rrad. The water (charg= e) that=20 comes out of the hose in the vertical part before reaching the maxim= um=20 vertical height is not crossing the upper part of the radiation resi= stance and=20 thus the ERP is smaller. So, it is the best to place the compressor/= coil as=20 high as possible since if the pressure/voltage in the vertical secti= on is=20 smaller (like before the compressor/coil) there is not so much water= pressed=20 through the holes in the vertical section!
And if you increase the= horizontal=20 section of the construction, there are more holes in sum above the= compressor=20 and thus more water is pressed through them at a given pressure. So,= the more=20 holes the more water, or charge (=3Dcurrent per cycle) in the vertic= al=20 part.
This analogical model can= explain even=20 more but surely there are also things that cannot be compared (like= a AC water=20 flow ;-); no closed circuit... ). But for a first imaginat= ion it is=20 useful in my point of view ;-)
 
If you place all the L on= the tower it=20 will be optimal. Then, you could use a simple wire that connects to= your earth=20 system without the need for a distance to other metallic part= s, since=20 there is no HV on this wire any more! That makes it easier even more= !=20
You can inject the power= by applying a=20 isolated primary on the coil and connect it to your PA in the shack= by a=20 loudspeaker cable. Or you need a transformer and inject it on the bo= ttom of=20 the wire between earth and lower part of the coil. That may be even= a litte=20 easier...
 
A later step will be to= reduce the earth=20 resistance but you can do that after starting to come up on the band= since=20 there will be no changes to the coil, maybe just to the output ratio= of the PA=20 transformer. Which PA will you use?
 
Best 73 and much fun!
 
Stefan/DK7FC
Von:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A.=20 Cianciolo
Gesendet: So 04.04.2010 22:28
An:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: LF: RE: W1VLF 9 Khz= Antenna=20 update Putting inductance near the top.

Stefan=20
 
On page 60 and=20 61 of the Low Frequency Experimenters Handbook Peter Dodd RSGB  = ;there is=20 an example putting a coil near the top of the antenna<= /DIV>
In this case=20 the transmitter is on 137 Khz and a of a portion (1/2) of the "L" ne= eded to=20 resonate was moved near the top. According to measurements by= Rik Strobbe=20 ON7YD  an increase of 4 to 5 db  was measured.
 
Do you think it=20 would be worth the effort to put 1/4 of the total "L" needed near th= e=20 top
I could do that=20 very easily.
 
PaulC
W1VLF
 
 
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