Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mi12.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mi12.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.21.131.170]) by air-di05.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDI053-eac84baff82126c; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:45:21 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-mi12.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E8E9238000098; Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Nw34v-0000ZC-7D for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:43:41 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Nw34u-0000Z3-AT for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:43:40 +0100 Received: from smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([76.13.13.242]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nw34r-00035x-J0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:43:40 +0100 Received: (qmail 234 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2010 00:43:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=snet.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:X-MIMEOLE:X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:In-Reply-To; b=LLotzImCHUdRLB+mq1Zs5YDnxkkG9CviNnthi+HxwqLjMmsaIAJT2rHQZfVllAljBp4tbXXwLHwssk/XI46MJvD0QIgGX7eASc/r+2ReO3K2nBHngtvcHq4gK8M0dijV1dKEFHP4K1Jer2lmIyXcaVS4mAzk8v0FSG32ir/MAnM= ; Received: from adsl-76-192-4-59.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net (paulc@76.192.4.59 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 2010 17:43:30 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: .XXmOBOswBCkuxW404eTLsnd.RdCQPge3WAF X-YMail-OSG: KPWdjBkVM1mPikwchNQKM.e6hlVSxmPPDkTzL5ocx7V1KjjVggLRM08L67d8HSqJKI8PLVL5FBklr8vr8rKeVIEJBtTVglvQzbTZp1wva0rf6kEGrvy9zG.0hK7Dmz7ZXtQ.HoChFu8Ll.IbQGuv26OseRfVbknqMjRa1JaEhisFV.xPIbk91Ou67_VWuGSbFhRAOoRYHFqOtxZ4Bdy9x_KmhqM69RX55tFnc3DWmRI_evlAFsim5xZRhWcy_GOs3ezjcznuAGF3CDgb9uo6Yg1fbRGwsf34QUfONONZ0GAEMebDQ8IaRdPTtCZnsEhLdKggRtBcPrIEdiw6LMIPXS9K X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Paul A. Cianciolo" To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 20:43:34 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1BB3@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=0.879,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AD_01CACEB7.558384A0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/56827 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean x-aol-sid: 3039400cded44baff81e7335 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01CACEB7.558384A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00AE_01CACEB7.558384A0" ------=_NextPart_001_00AE_01CACEB7.558384A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATEYes... = That coil inductance number was what I calculated based on a guess of what= the "C" would be. Now that I can read the capacitance... the inductance would be higher. Sadly. My next step is to see how much the "C" can be increased through the= use of several parallel radiators. Here is my situation for the antenna. 170' (55 meters) meters of #12 (2 mm) dia wire. The wire is termin= ated near the top of a 40 meter tall tower. There is a ceramic insulator= 6" long at the top, and the wire is suspended away from the tower after that= by rope. The wire runs to a point near the shack 2 meters about the ground.= =20 The antenna forms a 45 degree angle with the earth. So currently there is measured 340 pf in the antenna. =20 Next test is to run another wire, 1 meter spaced from current wire in parallel and remeasure the amount of "C" This is an easy test to do as I have a rope and pulley at the top of= the tower. If this works out I can use 3 wires spaced 1meter apart and test. Not sure how to implement a tophat yet. =20 Most important is to get my "C" up and the need for "L" down. Possible former is here http://hartford.craigslist.org/for/1659831822.html Normally used for a rain barrel. I will check them out tomorrow for suitability in coil building. PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On= Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fer Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 7:48 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: AW: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDAT= E Hello Paul,=20 Addition: If your C is 340pF and you want to resonate at 8,97kHz, yo= ur 545mH coil is to small! You will need L =3D 926mH! GL, Stefan/DK7FC ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ -- Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cianc= iolo Gesendet: So 28.03.2010 20:27 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDAT= E Hello Stefan, Thank you for the response. I hope to increase the "C" with top wir= es? The coil I have calculated is very large as you say.=20 Using one of Reg Edwards programs, it appears that a coil 1.2 meters= tall, .6 meters in diameter, using #21 wire, .76 MM dia would result in a 54= 5 mHy inductor. It would take 1500 turns, have a dc res. of 110 ohms and consist of= 9300' of wire for a total of 23 lbs of copper. I chose #21 because of the= its larger than the .46 MM you uses and hopefully would yield a higher "Q" and because I found a 50 LBs spool in possession already helps also= . :>) The predicted "Q" of the inductor is 300. I have to read more about tophat/wires at 9 KHz, but anything that= would reduce the size of the coil would be helpful. PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: Stefan Sch=E4fer [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On= Behalf Of Stefan Sch=E4fer Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:23 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: AW: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDAT= E Paul, the values you measured seem to be realistic for me. Especia= lly the measured antenna C does not really differ very much between 137kHz= and 9 kHz. It is a good value that allows you to dimension your needed L. Th= e needed L is nearly independent from the earth losses. I generally reco= mmend a variometer part of 1...5% of the fixed L to compensate all effects= that influence the antenna C. But think about if it is possible to increase= the antenna C instead of building a very huge coil that causes further los= ses. Good luck and have fun with building up! :-) 73, Stefan/DK7FC ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Paul A. Cia= nciolo Gesendet: Sa 27.03.2010 22:01 An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Betreff: RE: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPD= ATE Hello Folks, Thank you for all the help with measuring my antenna impedance. Let me explain further what I was using to measure with and then= add some updates. The homebrew bridge I was using was built as the one in the follow= ing link. The diagram at the very bottom of the page is the schematic I used= . http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=3D2285 This really my first venture into things LF and I had really no id= ea of what to expect for numbers After posting my results here, and talking to W1VD, he forwarded= me a link to Alan and Finbar's bridge experiments here http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/aelossbr.htm Basically I duplicated that design, making sure that the transform= er had 100 mHy of inductance to work at 10 KHz. Sure enough the bridge worked, and balance with my antenna, but wo= uld not balance with my antenna simulator load. The simulated load is 2 X 390 ohm .1% resistors in series with a= 500 pf silver mica. Reading on Alan talks about stray capacitance. "The problem with the usual trifilar wound transformer is that if= driven from an unbalanced source the secondary suffers unbalanced strays to= ground. This would mean that if you were to swap the components on the arms of= the bridge the balance would be different" With that in mind I built another transformer to balance the drive= to the bridge. After doing this the bridge will now balance with the sim= ulated load and the antenna. See the following numbers for results: Measurments were taken 10Khz The "R" and "C" "known" side of the bridge were then measure measu= red Sim load =3D 780 Ohms and 507 PF on LCR meter Sim load =3D 940 Ohms and 460 pf on the bridge. Antenna =3D 1111 Ohms and 330 PF on bridge Antenna also measured at 137 KHz Antenna =3D 85 ohms and 340 pf @137 Khz. I think these are more in line with what I should be reading???? What do you folks think? Thank you to everyone who responded to this post and helping me ge= t started. PauL C W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Johan H.= Bodin Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 4:32 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefa= n. Hi Paul, it sounds like your impedance bridge is measuring the absolute imp= edance (that is Z =3D (R^2 + X^2)^0.5 where R is the real part, resistanc= e, and X is the imaginary part, reactance). R is probably a 10 to a few hun= dred ohms, most of it is ground resistance - it can be neglected - the= major part of your impedance is the capacitive reactance of the antenna= (Xc). At 9 kHz, where C =3D 1/(2*Pi*9000*Xc), 70 kOhms means 253pF which= is in the ballpark for your 170' wire (about 5pF/m). 73 Johan SM6LKM ---- Paul A. Cianciolo wrote: > > Hello All, > > Below is a quote from the Stefan's web page concerning his lates= t "Dreamers Band" DX contact Congratulations again Stefan. >>From this information alone is it possible to calculate or know= the antenna system impedance. > > > > > "100m Vertical wire antenna, coil/antenna voltage was abt 15kV= rms, average antenna current about 480mA, giving up to 1,7mW ERP. Applied= power was up to 250W." > > Pertaining to the coil "Technical and mechanical data: L=3D553mH= , Q=3D82, R(DC)=3D283 Ohm; 0,4mm diameter enameled copper wire, about 1200 turns= ! Average diameter 0,55m, height abt 0,5m. So, about 2000m wire! :-)" > > > > I have built a small impedance bridge that operates at 10 KHZ an= d shows my sloping 170' wire as 70K Ohms. I can also see approx 500 PF= that can be nulled out using the bridge? > > Can the 70K value possibly be correct? (3) 6' ground rods abou= t 6' apart are the ground... plus the electrical ground of the house. > > I am hoping to attempt a local transmission on 9KHZ > > Any information would be helpful. > > Thank you > > Paul > > W1VLF > > > > > ------=_NextPart_001_00AE_01CACEB7.558384A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: LF: Question about ground impedance= at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE
Yes...    That coil inductance number was what I=20 calculated based on a guess of what the "C" would be.
N= ow that I can=20 read the capacitance... the inductance would be higher. =20 Sadly.
 
M= y next step is=20 to see how much the "C" can be increased through the use of  seve= ral=20 parallel radiators.
 
H= ere is my=20 situation for the antenna.
 
  170'&= nbsp; (55=20 meters) meters of #12 (2 mm) dia=20  wire. The wire is terminated near the top of a 40 meter= tall tower.=20 There is a ceramic=20  insulator 6"= long at the=20 top, and the wire is suspended away from the tower after that by=20 rope.
 
  The wire runs to a point near the shack 2= meters about=20 the ground.
 
  The antenna forms a 45 degree angle with th= e=20 earth.
 
S= o currently=20 there is measured 340 pf in the antenna. 
N= ext test is to=20 run another wire, 1 meter spaced from current wire in parallel and rem= easure the=20 amount of "C"
T= his is an easy=20 test to do as I have a rope and pulley at the top of the=20 tower.
I= f this works out=20 I can use 3 wires spaced 1meter apart and test.
 
N= ot sure how to=20 implement a tophat yet. 
M= ost important is=20 to get my "C" up and the need for "L" down.
 
P= ossible former=20 is here    http://hartford.craigslist.org/for/165983182= 2.html
N= ormally used for=20 a rain barrel. I will check them out tomorrow for suitability in coil= =20 building.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Stef= an Sch=E4fer=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefa= n=20 Sch=E4fer
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 7:48 PM
To:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: AW: LF: Question abo= ut ground=20 impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE

Hello Pau= l,
 
Addition:= If your C is=20 340pF and you want to resonate at 8,97kHz, your 545mH coil is to sma= ll! You=20 will need L =3D 926mH!
 
GL, Stefan/DK7FC

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org im=20 Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo
Gesendet: So 28.03.2010=20 20:27
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff:= RE: LF:=20 Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE

<= /DIV>
Hello=20 Stefan,
 
Thank you for=20 the response.  I hope to increase the "C" with top=20 wires?
 
The coil I have=20 calculated is very large as you say.
Using one of Reg Ed= wards programs, it appears=20 that a coil 1.2 meters tall, .6 meters in diameter, using #21 wire,= .76 MM dia=20 would result in a 545 mHy inductor.
It would take=20 1500 turns, have a dc res. of 110 ohms and consist of 9300' of wire= for a=20 total of 23 lbs of copper.  I chose #21 because of the its larg= er than=20 the .46 MM you uses and= hopefully=20 would yield a higher "Q"
and because = I found a 50 LBs spool in=20 possession already helps also. :>= ;)=20   The predicted "Q" of the inductor is=20 300.
 
I have to read more about tophat= /wires at 9 KHz, but=20 anything that would reduce the size of the coil would be=20 helpful.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
<= /FONT> 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: Stefan Sch=E4fer=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Stefa= n=20 Sch=E4fer
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:23 PM
To:= =20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: AW: LF: Question abo= ut ground=20 impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE

Paul,= the values you=20 measured seem to be realistic for me. Especially the measured ante= nna C does=20 not really differ very much between 137kHz and 9 kHz. It is a good= value=20 that allows you to dimension your needed L. The needed L is n= early=20 independent from the earth losses. I generally recommend a variome= ter part=20 of 1...5% of the fixed L to compensate all effects that influ= ence the=20 antenna C. But think about if it is possible to increase the anten= na C=20 instead of building a very huge coil that causes further=20 losses.
 
Good luck and have fun= with building=20 up! :-)
 
73, Stefan/DK7FC=

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org im=20 Auftrag von Paul A. Cianciolo
Gesendet: Sa 27.03.2010=20 22:01
An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: RE: LF:=20 Question about ground impedance at 8.97 KHZ **UPDATE

Hello Folks,

Thank you for all the help= with=20 measuring my antenna impedance.

Let me explain further what= I was=20 using to measure with and then add some updates.
The homebrew= bridge I=20 was using was built as the one in the following link.
The diagr= am at the=20 very bottom of the page is the schematic I used.
http://www.= dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=3D2285

This=20 really my first venture into things LF and I had really no idea of= what to=20 expect for numbers
After posting my results here, and talking= to W1VD, he=20 forwarded me a link to Alan and Finbar's bridge experiments herehttp://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/aelossbr.htm

Basic= ally=20 I duplicated that design, making sure that the transformer had 100= mHy of=20 inductance to work at 10 KHz.
Sure enough the bridge worked, an= d balance=20 with my antenna, but would not balance with my antenna simulator= =20 load.

The simulated load is 2 X 390 ohm .1% resistors in se= ries with=20 a 500 pf silver mica.

Reading on Alan talks about stray=20 capacitance.

"The problem with the usual trifilar wound tra= nsformer=20 is that if driven from an unbalanced source the secondary suffers= unbalanced=20 strays to ground. This would mean that if you were to swap the com= ponents on=20 the arms of the bridge the balance would be different"

With= that in=20 mind I built another transformer to balance the drive to the bridg= e. =20 After doing this the bridge will now balance with the simulated lo= ad and the=20 antenna.
See the following numbers for results:

Measurme= nts were=20 taken 10Khz
The "R" and "C" "known" side of the bridge were the= n measure=20 measured

Sim load =3D  780 Ohms and  507 PF on&nb= sp; LCR=20 meter

Sim load =3D  940 Ohms and  460 pf  on= the=20 bridge.


Antenna =3D  1111 Ohms and 330 PF on=20 bridge

Antenna also measured at 137 KHz

Antenna =3D= 85 ohms and=20 340 pf @137 Khz.


I think these are more in line with wh= at I=20 should be reading????

What do you folks think?

Thank= you to=20 everyone who responded to this post and helping me get=20 started.


PauL=20 C
W1VLF












----= -Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
[mailto:owner-= rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On=20 Behalf Of Johan H. Bodin
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 4:32 PMTo:=20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: Question about gr= ound=20 impedance at 8.97 KHZ Stefan.


Hi Paul,

it sounds= like your=20 impedance bridge is measuring the absolute impedance
(that is= Z =3D (R^2 +=20 X^2)^0.5 where R is the real part, resistance, and X
is the ima= ginary=20 part, reactance). R is probably a 10 to a few hundred
ohms, mos= t of it is=20 ground resistance - it can be neglected - the major
part of you= r=20 impedance is the capacitive reactance of the antenna (Xc).
At= 9 kHz,=20 where C =3D 1/(2*Pi*9000*Xc), 70 kOhms means 253pF which is in
= the ballpark=20 for your 170' wire (about 5pF/m).

73
Johan=20 SM6LKM

----

Paul A. Cianciolo wrote:
>
>= Hello=20 All,
>
> Below is a quote from the Stefan's web page= concerning=20 his latest "Dreamers Band" DX contact Congratulations again=20 Stefan.
>>From this information alone is it possible to= calculate=20 or know the antenna system=20 impedance.
>
>
>
>
> "100m Vertical= wire=20 antenna, coil/antenna voltage was abt 15kV rms, average antenna cu= rrent=20 about 480mA, giving up to 1,7mW ERP. Applied power was up to=20 250W."
>
> Pertaining to the coil "Technical and mecha= nical=20 data: L=3D553mH, Q=3D82, R(DC)=3D283 Ohm; 0,4mm diameter enameled= copper wire,=20 about 1200 turns! Average diameter 0,55m, height abt 0,5m. So, abo= ut 2000m=20 wire! :-)"
>
>
>
> I have built a small im= pedance=20 bridge that operates at 10 KHZ and shows my sloping 170' wire as= 70K Ohms. I=20 can also see approx 500 PF that can be nulled out using the=20 bridge?
>
> Can the 70K value possibly be correct?&nbs= p; =20 (3) 6' ground rods about 6' apart are the ground... plus the elect= rical=20 ground of the house.
>
> I am hoping to attempt a loca= l=20 transmission on 9KHZ
>
> Any information would be=20 helpful.
>
> Thank you
>
> Paul
>>=20 W1VLF
>
>
>
>
>


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