Return-Path: Received: from mtain-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.89]) by air-df08.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDF084-5f014bd84d46b1; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:59:18 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-db05.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6AC9438000321; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1O78ie-00045w-Fy for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:58:32 +0100 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1O78id-00045j-K2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:58:31 +0100 Received: from smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([66.196.96.86]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1O78ib-0002oD-6h for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:58:31 +0100 Received: (qmail 35825 invoked from network); 28 Apr 2010 14:58:22 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=snet.net; h=Received:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:In-Reply-To:Importance:X-MIMEOLE; b=xSFBhY+nXPzGAwqQIlpOl6cwVc64y1rREuHwUxr49AUZgJ3pKTiIYbEHCKc67s85//GIhoeR9tQn4X5iC8aU6Fg9VEVAAYC10zYZnMWM12Tza5H+qPkNfrVgGG25Rt3KtR43J+X4BYJBBkuOwv3BbVmtuV5DM53z3014u9WBavc= ; Received: from MAINDESK (paulc@75.58.180.90 with login) by smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Apr 2010 07:58:21 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: .XXmOBOswBCkuxW404eTLsnd.RdCQPge3WAF X-YMail-OSG: E9GSStMVM1kYTb1SvXG7TRLpHZ7bVMx2idguersgdlcwfwBAcTX6uA2xKLJXft3fdxzo2rN7nD0PcRMfHmgA2IiImWqr_2SC5w.vSVSKwUAgZ7r_ySXORQeKqPSMulpXjfVvU9FfTLQ9NaBCxbB8N5CMuxRdSZuBPQz_xUkFioVPN.J8xsptgMG_s.ayzH_7nXEotg_XTJuCqJaqSAk9TDxe8nCFQ72jLqRfm1tpnCJxW_RXeXrsDDr5k4EU1wkgbWV1ImvGyfjETi6fuJSNUppsdIDTUJEk16G31f0nzf13YE92dmb7_6pB98Y37cHNuuUdl5NbNADq7jJN4oJbr9qjM.KAQEu5ZQhLvTAzjp4m_MGMhOWHN_PVD6_l5dsW4VO1FuJoemurfsUQDMJOlOtDjA5BN.X7W6qChDKbqTnD5MUcYUTXEsBfq3cexsIjqopdA5PzjVKKbi3_AM110BOu0RM8W2w2osFMOpm4gssWIHjP7g-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: "Paul A. Cianciolo" To: Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:58:28 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS=0.879,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: LF: RE: RE: W1VLF 8.97 KHz UPDATE Trees, Questions, Ground Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01CAE6C1.BBDDC3B0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_FONTCOLOR_RED,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40594bd84d442aef X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01CAE6C1.BBDDC3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Rik, "But, with or without trees:, the better the ground system (rod's) the more efficient the antenna will be." SO.... Is it then possible to say that the current I see in the single grounded radial, and therefore the cumulative current of added radials is actual being radiated?? I plan on continuing with laying down radials and grounds in the forest as an experiment. When I have collected enough current, what that number is I don't know, Jay W1VD and I will conduct a test using ARGO to see if the additional current can be detected as a increase or decrease in signal strength. PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Rik Strobbe Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:32 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: W1VLF 8.97 KHz UPDATE Trees, Questions, Ground Hi Paul, Looking here http://rescueelectronics.com/9-Kilohertz.html near the bottom of the page one can see that the tower is backed up by forest. I wondered how much, if any, effect on antenna current running a long radial out in the forest would have? It might increase the loss resistance. It is a kind of trade-off: one the one hand more "area coverage" will reduce the loss resistance (cfr. Laurie's footprint theorie) on the other hand coming close to or even going over any greenry will cause an increase of the loss resistance. If it isn't too much trouble: just try and measure A) Am I just giving the trees a better return path or ground connection (the radial) to the coil??? And the power is being eaten up by the trees??? OR B) Is there a chance this power is actually being radiated, and therefore I should pursuit accumulating these grounds, and their current and return it to the coil?? The only way to avoid that power is "eaten" by the trees is staying way from them (or remove them). Apart from than there is little you can do. Or maybe trow wires over the tree and connect these wires to the ground system (not very practial I'm afraid). But, with or without trees:, the better the ground system (rod's) the more efficient the antenna will be. What is a tree at 9 KHz??? A very lossy capacitor ? 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01CAE6C1.BBDDC3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
O= K=20 Rik,
 

"But, with or without trees:, the better the=20 ground system (rod's) the more efficient the antenna will be."

 =

S= O.... Is it then=20 possible to say that the current I see in the single grounded radial,= and=20 therefore the cumulative current of added radials is actual being=20 radiated??
 
I= plan on =20 continuing with laying down radials and grounds in the forest as an=20 experiment.
W= hen I have=20 collected enough current, what that number is I don't know, Jay W1VD= and I will=20 conduct a test using ARGO to see if the additional current can be dete= cted as a=20 increase or decrease  in signal strength.
 
P= auLC
W1VLF
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]On Behalf Of Rik= =20 Strobbe
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:32 AM
To:= =20 rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: RE: W1VLF 8.97= KHz UPDATE=20 Trees, Questions, Ground

Hi Paul,

Looking here =20 http://rescueelectronics.com/9-Kilohertz.html near the bottom of the= page one=20 can see that the tower is backed up by forest.
I wondered how muc= h, if=20 any,  effect on antenna current running a long radial out in th= e forest=20 would have?

It might increase the loss resistance.

It is a kind of trade-off: one the= one hand=20 more "area coverage" will reduce the loss resistance (cfr. Laurie's= footprint=20 theorie) on the other hand coming close to or even going over any gr= eenry will=20 cause an increase of the loss resistance.

If it isn't too much trouble: just= try and=20 measure

A) Am I just giving the= trees a=20 better return path or  ground connection (the radial)  to= the=20 coil???
And the power is being eaten up by the trees???
OR
= B) =20 Is there a chance this power is actually being radiated, and therefo= re I=20 should pursuit accumulating these grounds, and their current and ret= urn it to=20 the coil??

The only way to avoid that power is "eaten" by the trees is stayi= ng way=20 from them (or remove them).

Apart from than there is little yo= u can do. Or=20 maybe trow wires over the tree and connect these wires to the ground= system=20 (not very practial I'm afraid).

But, with or without trees:, the= better the=20 ground system (rod's) the more efficient the antenna will be.=


What is a tree at 9 KHz???
A= very lossy=20 capacitor ?


73, Rik  ON7YD -= =20 OR7T

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