Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1181; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TINY_FONT,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id u2TCxadq001521 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:59:37 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1aktAW-0001Lv-Ii for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:54:48 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1aktAV-0001Lm-A7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:54:47 +0100 Received: from smtpout4.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.68] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aktAR-0007yf-Un for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:54:46 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.150.80.227]) by mwinf5d47 with ME id bouf1s0074uG3jT03oufrD; Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:54:42 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:54:42 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.150.80.227 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <094E96255B2D4EE9886317C115E7E5D9@Clemens0811> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:54:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: 7f94baae5be6e729d653a57c6cbcf347 Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] RE: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad quality problem Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01D189C2.89531800" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.11 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7509 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01D189C2.89531800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy > PIC=20 If the execute times of PIC routines are not subject to IRQ = ..or if they are , could be in a predictable pattern , assuming = nothing else was 'going on' =20 Then , the PIC alone would produce a reasonable drive [ square wave = or pulse] for a class e/d logic divider chain , there being no = need [lf/mf] for the ppl or dds ? how fast , will a pic run? 73-G, =20 From: Andy Talbot=20 Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 9:04 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Cc: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] RE: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC = WSPR bad quality problem If you are referring to the close spaced lines making up the spectrum of = the two strong signals, from teh plot you show they appear to be about = 1.5Hz spacing. This is the WSPR symbol rate (actually 1.465Hz) so the = lines visible are the natural sidebands from the WSPR waveform.=20 I'd be surprised if an DDS itself were generating 100Hz sidebands on its = own. Especially a more modern one like the AD9859. Even the = venerable AD9850 doesn't generate stuff only 40dB down. So I'd still = look for other means of 100Hz leakage. Perhaps getting onto the = reference source. I assume the two stations both reporting 100Hz = sidebands are using identical generating hardware ? I use an AD9852 for WSPR and generationg MFSK modes generally, a device = perhaps bit a bit older than the AD9859, but the same family, and it is = certainly clean down to at least -60dBc. When driven from a higher = clock frequency, better still. Andy G4JNT On 27 March 2016 at 19:47, 'Clemens Paul' cpaul@gmx.net [rsgb_lf_group] = wrote: =20 Hello all, I've been watching the 100Hz sideband WSPR multi-decodes also from the = other two strong stations on MW, DH5RAE and DB0ABR.They are located about 65km from me and generate = S9++dB signals here. The deoded sidebands are also about 40dB down. DB0ABR has tried a different power supply to no avail and both believe = that the DDS synthesizer is the culprit. It is a AD9859,see http://www.dj0abr.de/index_english.html I have added a perseus screenshot with a bin width of 0.24Hz showing = strange lines in their signal. I'm not sure if this is the DDS spectrum what we see here. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ=20 >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andy Talbot >Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:06 PM >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk >Subject: Cheap and nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad=20 >quality problem > >It is unfortunate these cheap and simple low power solutions=20 >have come-about at all. The originators who worked out how=20 >to generate a few milliwatts of Rf from very non-purpose=20 >designed hardware presumably never anticipated that eh great=20 >masses would end up connecting this unsuitable kit to high=20 >power amplifiers. I hope they only ever anticipated their=20 >being used for very low power uses. > >As for the R-PI, that really does look like a bad way of=20 >generating narrow band RF. I don't know the details of its=20 >internal hardare, but strongly suspect that it uses a=20 >jittering Fract-N route to generating arbitrary frequencies.=20 > Again, fine for a few milliwats of test signal, but=20 >certainly not for amplification to hundreds of milliwatts. > >If you want a decent high power source, use a DDS chip or a=20 >modern Fract-N synthesizer like the LMX2541. That device has=20 >an internal VCO and an output divider that allows it to=20 >generate as low as 35MHz - and then any external CMSO divider=20 >will allow you to go lower. And they are CLEAN - especially=20 >so when divided down to LF / HF=20 > > >Andy G4JNT > > > > >On 27 March 2016 at 18:14, Graham wrote: > > >=20 > Andy, >=20 > This time its not really Stefan's fault :-,) >=20 > This is a problem , using the raspberry PI , the Pi=20 >processor uses interrupts, which, cause the execution time=20 >of the timing loops to vary slightly , > the 'small' time variations , produce side bands . >=20 > This was evident during the development of a R-PI=20 >routine for sending Opera , as the R-Pi support=20 >documentation is not particularly comprehensive, its 'not'=20 >possible to fully address the i/o functions and as such=20 >there exists a conflict with higher order irq requests .=20 >Producing seemingly random widening of the spectrum,=20 >depending on the irq deployments.=20 >=20 > Ie the pulse train suffers from timing jitter=20 >=20 > The alterative of the U3 beacon key'er , driving=20 >the DDS 'oscillator' is a more elegant solution, but as=20 >noted by Andy [rad-com] some time back, the later U3 with=20 >the PPL suffers from settling time issues , when=20 >commanded with , step frequency changes. these sever to=20 >produce sidebands , at the step changes.=20 >=20 > 73-G,=20 >=20 > > From: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB =20 > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:36 PM > To: RSGB LF Group =20 > Subject: LF: DK7FC WSPR bad quality problem > > > Hello Stefan. > >=20 > > I am sorry, but this evening you have a very poor=20 >quality WSPR signal on MF with many splatters, I think it is=20 >perhaps due to an overload TX AF level. > >=20 > > That is not in phase with the normal ham spirit. So,=20 >please be kind to stop now your transmission and correct this = problem. > >=20 > > On the way, can you say honnestly if your power is not=20 >over the legal limit ? > >=20 > > Sincerly yours and my best 73 de Andy. > >=20 > > P.S.=20 > >=20 > > Have a look below at some reports last hour showing the=20 >problem : > >=20 > >=20 > >2016-03-26 19:00=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475683=20 > >+12=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >PI4THT=20 > >JO32kf=20 > >336=20 > >338=20 > >2016-03-26 19:00=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475783=20 > >-25=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >PI4THT=20 > >JO32kf=20 > >336=20 > >338 > >2016-03-26 18:50=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475783=20 > >-23=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >PE1RKT=20 > >JO22fb=20 > >418=20 > >316=20 > >2016-03-26 18:50=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475683=20 > >+14=20 > >1=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >PE1RKT=20 > >JO22fb=20 > >418=20 > >316 > >2016-03-26 18:40=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475683=20 > >+12=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >LA8AV=20 > >JO59cs=20 > >1153=20 > >4=20 > >2016-03-26 18:40=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475783=20 > >-24=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >LA8AV=20 > >JO59cs=20 > >1153=20 > >4=20 > >2016-03-26 18:50=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475783=20 > >-28=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >LA3JJ=20 > >JO59bh=20 > >1102=20 > >4=20 > >2016-03-26 18:50=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475683=20 > >+10=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >LA3JJ=20 > >JO59bh=20 > >1102=20 > >4=20 > >2016-03-26 18:40=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475780=20 > >-28=20 > >1=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >G3KEV=20 > >IO94sh=20 > >829=20 > >314=20 > >2016-03-26 18:40=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475679=20 > >+10=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >G3KEV=20 > >IO94sh=20 > >829=20 > >314=20 > >2016-03-26 19:10=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475682=20 > >+13=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >F6CNI=20 > >JN19qb=20 > >389=20 > >266=20 > >2016-03-26 19:10=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475782=20 > >-27=20 > >1=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >F6CNI=20 > >JN19qb=20 > >389=20 > >266=20 > >2016-03-26 18:30=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475682=20 > >+15=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >F5WK=20 > >JN18hp=20 > >452=20 > >261=20 > >2016-03-26 18:30=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475782=20 > >-22=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >F5WK=20 > >JN18hp=20 > >452=20 > >261=20 > >2016-03-26 18:00=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475680=20 > >+19=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >DL6II=20 > >JO30nx=20 > >205=20 > >327=20 > >2016-03-26 18:00=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475780=20 > >-18=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >DL6II=20 > >JO30nx=20 > >205=20 > >327=20 > >2016-03-26 18:50=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475682=20 > >+17=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >DL4RAJ/2=20 > >JN68kj=20 > >326=20 > >109=20 > >2016-03-26 18:50=20 > >DK7FC=20 > >0.475782=20 > >-22=20 > >0=20 > >JN49ik=20 > >1=20 > >DL4RAJ/2=20 > >JN68kj=20 > >326=20 > >109 > >=20 > > > __._,_.___ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Posted by: "Clemens Paul" =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Reply via web post =E2=80=A2 Reply to sender =E2=80=A2 Reply = to group =E2=80=A2 Start a new topic =E2=80=A2 Messages in this topic = (2) =20 Visit Your Group a.. New Members 1=20 =E2=80=A2 Privacy =E2=80=A2 Unsubscribe =E2=80=A2 Terms of Use=20 . =20 =20 __,_._,___ ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01D189C2.89531800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andy > PIC
 
If the  execute  times  of PIC  routines  = are=20 not  subject to   IRQ  ..or if they are , could = be  in=20 a predictable pattern , assuming  nothing else was 'going on' =  
 
Then , the  PIC alone  would  produce a reasonable=20 drive  [ square  wave or  pulse]   for  = a  =20 class e/d  logic divider  chain , there  being  = no =20 need  [lf/mf]   for the  ppl or dds ?
 
how fast , will  a  pic run?
 
73-G,
 

 
From: Andy Talbot
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rsgb_lf_group] RE: Cheap and nasty sources - = was LF:=20 DK7FC WSPR bad quality problem

If you are referring to the close spaced lines making up = the=20 spectrum of the two strong signals, from teh plot you show they appear = to be=20 about 1.5Hz spacing.  This is the WSPR symbol rate  (actually = 1.465Hz)=20 so the lines visible are the natural sidebands from the WSPR waveform.=20

I'd be surprised if an DDS itself were generating 100Hz sidebands = on its=20 own.   Especially a more modern one like the AD9859.   =  Even the=20 venerable AD9850 doesn't generate stuff only 40dB down.    So = I'd=20 still look for other means of 100Hz leakage.   Perhaps getting onto =  the reference source.     I assume the two stations both = reporting 100Hz sidebands are using identical generating hardware = ?

I use an AD9852 for WSPR and generationg MFSK modes generally, a = device=20 perhaps bit a bit older than the AD9859, but the same family, and it is=20 certainly clean down to at least -60dBc.   When driven from a = higher clock=20 frequency, better still.

Andy  G4JNT


On 27 March 2016 at 19:47, 'Clemens Paul' cpaul@gmx.net [rsgb_lf_group] <rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk> = wrote:
 =20

Hello all,

I've been watching the 100Hz sideband WSPR = multi-decodes=20 also from the other two strong stations on MW,
DH5RAE and = DB0ABR.They are=20 located about 65km from me and generate S9++dB signals here.
The = deoded=20 sidebands are also about 40dB down.
DB0ABR has tried a different = power=20 supply to no avail and both believe that the DDS synthesizer is the=20 culprit.
It is a AD9859,see
http://www.dj0abr.de/index_english.html
I have = added a=20 perseus screenshot with a bin width of 0.24Hz showing strange lines in = their=20 signal.
I'm not sure if this is the DDS spectrum what we see=20 here.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ

>-----Original=20 Message-----
>From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org =
>[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of = Andy=20 Talbot
>Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 8:06 PM
>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk
>Subject: = Cheap and=20 nasty sources - was LF: DK7FC WSPR bad
>quality=20 problem
>
>It is unfortunate these cheap and simple low = power=20 solutions
>have come-about at all. The originators who worked = out how=20
>to generate a few milliwatts of Rf from very non-purpose=20
>designed hardware presumably never anticipated that eh great=20
>masses would end up connecting this unsuitable kit to high=20
>power amplifiers. I hope they only ever anticipated their=20
>being used for very low power uses.
>
>As for the = R-PI,=20 that really does look like a bad way of
>generating narrow band = RF. I=20 don't know the details of its
>internal hardare, but strongly = suspect=20 that it uses a
>jittering Fract-N route to generating arbitrary = frequencies.
> Again, fine for a few milliwats of test signal, = but=20
>certainly not for amplification to hundreds of=20 milliwatts.
>
>If you want a decent high power source, use = a DDS=20 chip or a
>modern Fract-N synthesizer like the LMX2541. That = device has=20
>an internal VCO and an output divider that allows it to=20
>generate as low as 35MHz - and then any external CMSO divider=20
>will allow you to go lower. And they are CLEAN - especially =
>so=20 when divided down to LF / HF
>
>
>Andy=20 G4JNT
>
>
>
>
>On 27 March 2016 at = 18:14, Graham=20 <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> = wrote:
>
>
>=20
> Andy,
>
> This time its not really Stefan's = fault=20 :-,)
>
> This is a problem , using the raspberry PI , the = Pi=20
>processor uses interrupts, which, cause the execution time =
>of=20 the timing loops to vary slightly ,
> the 'small' time = variations ,=20 produce side bands .
>
> This was evident during the = development=20 of a R-PI
>routine for sending Opera , as the R-Pi support=20
>documentation is not particularly comprehensive, its 'not'=20
>possible to fully address the i/o functions and as such =
>there=20 exists a conflict with higher order irq requests .
>Producing = seemingly=20 random widening of the spectrum,
>depending on the irq = deployments.=20
>
> Ie the pulse train suffers from timing jitter =
>=20
> The alterative of the U3 beacon key'er , driving
>the = DDS=20 'oscillator' is a more elegant solution, but as
>noted by Andy=20 [rad-com] some time back, the later U3 with
>the PPL suffers = from=20 settling time issues , when
>commanded with , step frequency = changes.=20 these sever to
>produce sidebands , at the step changes. =
>=20
> 73-G,
>
>
> From: F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB=20 <mailto:f6cni@orange.fr>
> Sent: Saturday, March = 26, 2016=20 8:36 PM
> To: RSGB LF Group <mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Subject: = LF: DK7FC=20 WSPR bad quality problem
>
>
> Hello = Stefan.
>
>=20
>
> I am sorry, but this evening you have a very poor=20
>quality WSPR signal on MF with many splatters, I think it is=20
>perhaps due to an overload TX AF level.
>
>=20
>
> That is not in phase with the normal ham spirit. So,=20
>please be kind to stop now your transmission and correct this=20 problem.
>
>
>
> On the way, can you say = honnestly if=20 your power is not
>over the legal limit ?
>
>=20
>
> Sincerly yours and my best 73 de = Andy.
>
>=20
>
> P.S.
>
>
>
> Have a look = below at=20 some reports last hour showing the
>problem :
>
>=20
>
>
>
>2016-03-26 19:00 =
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475683
>
>+12
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PI4THT=20
>
>JO32kf
>
>336
>
>338=20
>
>2016-03-26 19:00
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475783
>
>-25
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PI4THT=20
>
>JO32kf
>
>336=20
>
>338
>
>2016-03-26 18:50 =
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475783
>
>-23
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PE1RKT=20
>
>JO22fb
>
>418
>
>316=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475683
>
>+14
>
>1=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>PE1RKT=20
>
>JO22fb
>
>418=20
>
>316
>
>2016-03-26 18:40 =
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475683
>
>+12
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA8AV=20
>
>JO59cs
>
>1153
>
>4=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475783
>
>-24
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA8AV=20
>
>JO59cs
>
>1153
>
>4=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475783
>
>-28
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA3JJ=20
>
>JO59bh
>
>1102
>
>4=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475683
>
>+10
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>LA3JJ=20
>
>JO59bh
>
>1102
>
>4=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475780
>
>-28
>
>1=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>G3KEV=20
>
>IO94sh
>
>829
>
>314=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:40
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475679
>
>+10
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>G3KEV=20
>
>IO94sh
>
>829
>
>314=20
>
>2016-03-26 19:10
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475682
>
>+13
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F6CNI=20
>
>JN19qb
>
>389
>
>266=20
>
>2016-03-26 19:10
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475782
>
>-27
>
>1=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F6CNI=20
>
>JN19qb
>
>389
>
>266=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:30
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475682
>
>+15
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F5WK=20
>
>JN18hp
>
>452
>
>261=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:30
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475782
>
>-22
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>F5WK=20
>
>JN18hp
>
>452
>
>261=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:00
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475680
>
>+19
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL6II=20
>
>JO30nx
>
>205
>
>327=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:00
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475780
>
>-18
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL6II=20
>
>JO30nx
>
>205
>
>327=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475682
>
>+17
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL4RAJ/2=20
>
>JN68kj
>
>326
>
>109=20
>
>2016-03-26 18:50
>
>DK7FC=20
>
>0.475782
>
>-22
>
>0=20
>
>JN49ik
>
>1
>
>DL4RAJ/2=20
>
>JN68kj
>
>326 =
>
>109
>
>=20
>
>
>

__._,_.___
Posted by: "Clemens Paul" <cpaul@gmx.net>=20
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a new topic Messages in this topic (2) =
=E2=80=A2 =E2=80=A2 =E2=80=A2 =E2=80=A2
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