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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Jim that would be a good idea, but may not be necessary. I seem to remember that the NATO VLF station in Europe have very stable phase. (Stanford report using phase variation on Jim Creek for SID detection but that is of course daytime) Markus may have more data? [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 636960e0f5eb187ef6993b21d3ecebaf Subject: Re: VLF: DL to VK7 ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A0_01D3BE36.E04CFE50" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01D3BE36.E04CFE50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim that would be a good idea, but may not be necessary. I seem to = remember that the NATO VLF station in Europe have very stable phase. = (Stanford report using phase variation on Jim Creek for SID detection = but that is of course daytime) Markus may have more data? I think the steady increase in phase after dark should be capable of = being measured via HWU in VK. However the path is a complex one of 7 or = 8 hops. In the best case there will only be one Gt Ciircle path, however = I doubt it will be so simple. From LF measurements of signals from CFH = Halifax NS, basically 2 hops to the UK .....1 hop and 3 hop signals = could also be detected. The complication on a 7 hop path is there is = likely to be 7+/- 1 hop path signals at the least, contaminating the = main mode. I wonder if this could be determined by monitoring another = station say DHO as well. Although not so close to Stefan's frequency = the relative phase changes are a simple relationship of frequency, = wavelength and path-length. Hopefully it will not be necessary to go so far. We are entering Solar = minimum, so we can hope this will be favourable to them. Its a = fascinating experiment. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: hvanesce@comcast.net=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 8:35 PM Subject: RE: VLF: DL to VK7 ? Hello Stefan, =20 =E2=80=9COne could try to track HWU and its phase and then correct the = phase of my signal by the HWU phase=E2=80=9D =20 Question: After first subtracting HWU transmitter phase variations = (based on HWU-signal phase variations seen at the grabber closest to = HWU)? =20 In other words, subtract the HWU phase variations seen at the grabber = closest to HWU, from the HWU phase variations seen at Edgar=E2=80=99s = grabber, and use the result to correct the phase of the DK7FC signal = seen at Edgar=E2=80=99s grabber? =20 73, =20 Jim AA5BW =20 =20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 10:38 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: VLF: DL to VK7 ? =20 VLF,=20 Another file from Edgar. Now we can already compare two individual = days as well as stacked days. As expected, the phase seems to be quite = dynamic making it hard to pass a message to down under. I improved the plot a bit by reducing the measurement interval to 5 = minutes. I also added a trace for a 30 minute carrier which reaches up = to 7.55 dB in 556 uHz! 3 plots are available now. 15 March: = http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/VLF/VK7_15MAR.png 16 March: = http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/VLF/VK7_16MAR.png 15+16 March, unweighted stack: = http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/VLF/VK7_1516MAR.png Unfortunately the stacking does not improve the SNR, it reduces it! = This can be expected from an extremely dynamic propagation as it seems = to be. We can now continue to watch a few more individual days and the = stacked days. If the phase is not reproducable at all, the stacked SNR = will become lower each day. If it is reproducable, there will be a peak = building up. Another idea is to correct the phase by using other signals within the = band. HWU on 18.3 kHz is not so far away, regarding location and = frequency. One could try to track HWU and its phase and then correct the = phase of my signal by the HWU phase. Meanwhile i would call this valid = :-) Edgar is already preparing for HWU measurements! 73, Stefan Am 16.03.2018 17:52, schrieb DK7FC:=20 VLF,=20 Edgar has sent me a txt file which i converted into a wav file using = Markus' tools. The file starts 15:11 UTC and covers nearly 9 hours, so = it covers the complete time where i transmitted on 17470.1 Hz. I tried to decode a '*' EbNaut message taking 8 hours, without sucess. Then i moved the file on the Linux PC and tried to decode an '*' = EbNaut message again, which is equal than analysing a carrier.=20 BTW my antenna current was just 900 mA at times. I could run 1.5 A, so = i'm missing 4.4 dB! This is not acceptable at all. I need to build a = better PA quickly. I quickly wrote a script to generate the SNR of a carrier with = variable time offset (in 10 minute steps; relative to the file start) = and variable length. This way we can see how dynamic the propagation = (phase!) changes.=20 Working together with vlfrx tools and Microsoft EXCEL!!! is a thing = that some people don't like :-)=20 But this is how i can do it as fast as possible at the moment.=20 Attached you see a mst confusing series of graphs. Selfeexplaining for = some, but, well you can for example see that a 2 hour long carrier at = 6.3 dB SNR 138.9 uHz can be extracted when applying a time offset of = 4.5 hours to the file start. You can also see that a 4 hour long carrier will only reach about 3 dB = SNR in 69.4 uHz! BTW i ignored the 20 minute transmission break from last night, which = will cause a small error. Now we could generate another set of graphs showing how it looks when = applying the brand new iqnorm script by Paul. And we can see how the curves develop when stacking two or more files! = This will tell something about the reproducability of the obviously = quite dynamic phase... So far so good. The TX is running again, same procedure than = yesterday... 73, Stefan ------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01D3BE36.E04CFE50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Hi Jim that would be a good idea, but = may not be=20 necessary. I seem to remember that the NATO VLF station in Europe have = very=20 stable phase. (Stanford report using phase variation on Jim Creek for = SID=20 detection but that is of course daytime) Markus may have more = data?
 
I think the steady increase in phase = after dark=20 should be capable of being measured via HWU in VK. However the path = is a=20 complex one of 7 or 8 hops. In the best case there will only be one Gt=20 Ciircle path, however I doubt it will be so simple. From LF = measurements of=20 signals from CFH Halifax NS, basically 2 hops to the UK .....1 hop and 3 = hop=20 signals could also be detected. The complication on a 7 hop path is = there is=20 likely to be 7+/- 1 hop path signals at the least, contaminating the = main mode.=20 I wonder if this could be determined by monitoring another station say = DHO as=20 well.  Although not so close to Stefan's frequency the relative = phase=20 changes are a simple relationship of frequency, wavelength and=20 path-length.
 
Hopefully it will not be necessary to = go so far. We=20 are entering Solar minimum, so we can hope this will be favourable = to them.=20 Its a fascinating experiment.
 
Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 hvanesce@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 = 8:35=20 PM
Subject: RE: VLF: DL to VK7 = ?

Hello=20 Stefan,

 

=E2=80=9COne=20 could try to track HWU and its phase and then correct the phase of my = signal=20 by the HWU phase=E2=80=9D

 

Question:=20 After first subtracting HWU transmitter phase variations (based on = HWU-signal=20 phase variations seen at the grabber closest to = HWU)?

 

In=20 other words, subtract the HWU phase variations seen at the grabber = closest to=20 HWU,  from the HWU phase variations seen at Edgar=E2=80=99s = grabber, and use the=20 result to correct the phase of the DK7FC signal seen at = Edgar=E2=80=99s=20 grabber?

 

73,

 

Jim=20 AA5BW

 

 

 

From:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]=20 On Behalf Of DK7FC
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 = 10:38=20 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: = VLF: DL=20 to VK7 ?

 

VLF,

Another file from Edgar. Now we can = already=20 compare two individual days as well as stacked days. As expected, the = phase=20 seems to be quite dynamic making it hard to pass a message to down = under.
I=20 improved the plot a bit by reducing the measurement interval to 5 = minutes. I=20 also added a trace for a 30 minute carrier which reaches up to 7.55 = dB in=20 556 uHz!
3 plots are available now.
15 March: = http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/VLF/VK7_15MAR.png
16= =20 March: = http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/VLF/VK7_16MAR.png
15= +16=20 March, unweighted stack: http://www.iup.uni-heidelberg.de/schaefer_vlf/VLF/VK7_1516MAR.png
Unfortunately=20 the stacking does not improve the SNR, it reduces it! This can be = expected=20 from an extremely dynamic propagation as it seems to be.
We can now = continue to watch a few more individual days and the stacked days. If = the=20 phase is not reproducable at all, the stacked SNR will become lower = each day.=20 If it is reproducable, there will be a peak building = up.

Another idea=20 is to correct the phase by using other signals within the band. HWU on = 18.3=20 kHz is not so far away, regarding location and frequency. One could = try to=20 track HWU and its phase and then correct the phase of my signal by the = HWU=20 phase. Meanwhile i would call this valid :-) Edgar is already = preparing for=20 HWU measurements!

73, Stefan


Am 16.03.2018 17:52, = schrieb=20 DK7FC:

VLF,

Edgar = has sent me=20 a txt file which i converted into a wav file using Markus' tools. The = file=20 starts 15:11 UTC and covers nearly 9 hours, so it covers the complete = time=20 where i transmitted on 17470.1 Hz.
I tried to decode a '*' EbNaut = message=20 taking 8 hours, without sucess.

Then i moved the file on the = Linux PC=20 and tried to decode an '*' EbNaut message again, which is equal than = analysing=20 a carrier.
BTW my antenna current was just 900 mA at times. I = could run=20 1.5 A, so i'm missing 4.4 dB! This is not acceptable at all. I need to = build a=20 better PA quickly.

I quickly wrote a script to generate the SNR = of a=20 carrier with variable time offset (in 10 minute steps; relative to the = file=20 start) and variable length. This way we can see how dynamic the = propagation=20 (phase!) changes.
Working together with vlfrx tools and Microsoft = EXCEL!!!=20 is a thing that some people don't like :-)
But this is how i can = do it as=20 fast as possible at the moment.

Attached you see a mst = confusing=20 series of graphs. Selfeexplaining for some, but, well you can for = example see=20 that a 2 hour long carrier at 6.3 dB SNR 138.9 uHz can = be=20 extracted when applying a time offset of  4.5 hours to the file=20 start.
You can also see that a 4 hour long carrier will only reach = about 3=20 dB SNR in 69.4 uHz!
BTW i ignored the 20 minute transmission break = from=20 last night, which will cause a small error.

Now we could = generate=20 another set of graphs showing how it looks when applying the brand new = iqnorm=20 script by Paul.
And we can see how the curves develop when stacking = two or=20 more files! This will tell something about the reproducability of the=20 obviously quite dynamic phase...

So far so good. The TX is = running=20 again, same procedure than yesterday...

73,=20 Stefan

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