Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id w1QG13qs002232 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:01:05 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1eqL7t-0002hp-AH for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:55:41 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1eqL7q-0002hg-33 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:55:38 +0000 Received: from resqmta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net ([2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:38]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eqL7l-00057N-VE for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:55:36 +0000 Received: from resomta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.103]) by resqmta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id qL6eeziNYqXXKqL7he1nYx; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:55:29 +0000 X-DKIM-Result: Domain=comcast.net Result=Signature OK DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20161114; t=1519660529; bh=/U4F61IxbXfYOVYNzgCuoDzK1BxL1nDr+7vP666adLQ=; h=Received:Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=BWM6Lz62jjRTD08COLsCLY0CXJML3ChWHVA1lOEH+EWSc7QREs3bj+nNbeRO6raVm ksK0QXTSqlIrqY11yjQKbus0yQUMhxfUwIOiYL7zXPoyCt+gKlgY3jDP88KHShL9Cu sHn9+luFSRRJipIffe0mHdh7M183WVaxciNN88V0Rj/4L0xE/+xeAd32r8Tn3BIIoT r0mGJ5JSQ/thZrJrvxc0Ia8wUjZvjel8/4PC+5CjqcOC8/7HZpvkcKLKhttlehTkGb 0eLIFwUKtNO2lFzbGv52gSTDEnLlsPCTD3qjuVBQlE/G8nJghc+WUxXCppuvGrCAOD em0KxxCMSMOhQ== Received: from DELL4 ([73.4.253.141]) by resomta-ch2-07v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id qL7eefVePVIoSqL7eeuOnh; Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:55:29 +0000 Message-ID: From: To: References: <1UQOBAX9Wi.5GpBpi86BpG@optiplex980-pc> <161ce6c803f-1564-19878@webjas-vab234.srv.aolmail.net> <024d01d3aeb2$52a23450$f7e69cf0$@comcast.net> <5A93F0AF.7040503@posteo.de> <028501d3af0c$34211cd0$9c635670$@comcast.net> <5A941B0F.3050804@posteo.de> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfMyYoQI0Gpj9fd195h65uPmojd2JYhaWGeKzvsFdFE/f0BINc1fpwyM/P166m/CUqPNpGtzbi6BGa4sodGZPP+9gJoQ4yAmmoeYxpmTh8UDY0CouO/ef v1dT6ajqyhReMvYPDNP55riD4qv1ESTqGbK4NYBIOsZ8YQMzoEpqtHzx X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Stefan Looking forward to 17.47 kHz. Remember, some of my best receptions of SAQ 17.2 kHz were during their summer (in June IIRC) transmissions! Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jrusgrove[at]comcast.net) 0.0 T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID BODY: Test for Invalidly Named or Formatted Colors in HTML 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 154db5a8d9209009ec52829fd54f1a56 Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01D3AEF0.4ED48150" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.3 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01D3AEF0.4ED48150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stefan Looking forward to 17.47 kHz. Remember, some of my best receptions of = SAQ 17.2 kHz were during their summer (in June IIRC) transmissions! Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DK7FC=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Hi Jim,=20 Yes but the messages from VO1NA took much longer to decode at limilar = distances. I don't know exactly, i think it was something between 4...6 = days to produce a decode at DL0AO ?=20 But that was with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to = think about the local noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay = uses a pure omni-directional E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software = combined cardioid antenna pointing to EW exactly. In the end there are some uncertainties which makes it hard to = determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like something = between 10...20 dB is a good estimate. Depending on the time it needs to produce a lucky 5 character decode = at W1VD, i will soon move to 17.47 kHz again to start experimenting with = Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 km = (http://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=3DQE37PD35&from=3Djn49ik00wd). Then at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to = see the difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big = difference but i bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB. 73, Stefan Am 26.02.2018 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 Stefan, Thank you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core = selection/placement and winding improvements come to mind when you = mention that number.=20 Correcting the sentence below: =E2=80=9C(ERP ratio = 16dB)=E2=80=A6offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE = ratio for 6Mm path) by 7dB. Excellent ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative = consistency of same-month E-W and W-E link results with non-reciprocity = at 8270 Hz. 73, Jim AA5BW=20 =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of DK7FC Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 6:34 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Thanks Jim, ERP is 400 uW. Often discussed but my statement here :-) 73, Stefan Am 26.02.2018 04:31, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20 Congratulations Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the = perspectives and reference points. I have a rough recollection of = Stefan=E2=80=99s estimated ERP, which would seem to slightly more than = offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio, making Markus=E2=80=99 two = propagation observations particularly interesting, as is the Forest = question. Fine work Stefan and Jay. 73, Jim AA5BW =20 From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Markus Vester Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:25 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Hi Jay, Stefan,=20 really good work, truly amazing!=20 Noticing that Stefan hadn't sent another repeat last night 24/25th, = I wondered whether the experiment might have already been concluded = successfully - yes it had ;-) Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E path with only 10 = uW, in retrospective it seems not so surprising that Stefan's much = stronger signal managed to overcome the E-W nonreciprocity. On the other = hand, when Uwe had sent a very long carrier in March 2014, no conclusive = trace was ever detected in Virginia. Now I wonder whether Stefan's = recent transmission has also been picked up in Forest? All the best, Markus (DF6NM) =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: jrusgrove An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) Verschickt: So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26 Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more success! Stefans transmission: f =3D 8270.1000 Hz Start time: 19.FEB.2018 22:30:00 UTC (daily) Symbol period: 30 s Characters: 2 CRC bits: 22 Coding 16K21A Duration: 07:12 [hh:mm] Antenna current: 700 mA After a successful one character reception earlier in the week, we = can now report the successful reception of a 2 character message. = Stacking of 3 transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There = is also a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be = usable.=20 ebnaut-rx V0.8 input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav sample rate 0.457240 per second rx frequency 8270 file start time 2018-02-22 22:21:17.790 polynomial 16K21A crc size 22 number of chars 2 block size 34 symbol period 30.000 number of symbols 864 start offset 537.000 freq offset 0.100000 cores 2 list length 500000 skipped 538.011261 seconds to start initial reference phase 30.6 --------------------------------------------- found DX list rank 48426 reference phase 150,150,150,150 carrier S/N 11.04 dB in 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in = 2.5kHz carrier Es/N0 -18.33 dB carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB info bit period 2273.68 seconds symbol error rate 373/864 =3D 43.171 % Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 dB Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.6 dB Shannon capacity 2.5 bits/hour Shannon efficiency 62.7 % symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv elapsed 52 seconds --------------------------------------------- found DX list rank 17074 reference phase 120,150,120,150 carrier S/N 11.19 dB in 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in = 2.5kHz carrier Es/N0 -18.17 dB carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB info bit period 2273.68 seconds symbol error rate 374/864 =3D 43.287 % Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 dB Eb/N0 from symbol errors 0.4 dB Shannon capacity 2.6 bits/hour Shannon efficiency 60.5 % symbols file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv elapsed 383 seconds Jay W1VD WD2XNS WE2XGR/2 ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01D3AEF0.4ED48150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Stefan
 
Looking forward to 17.47 kHz. Remember, = some of my=20 best receptions of SAQ 17.2 kHz were during their summer (in June IIRC)=20 transmissions!
 
Jay W1VD  WD2XNS  = WE2XGR/2
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 DK7FC=20
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 = 9:34=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > = W1VD 8.27=20 kHz EbNaut more success!

Hi Jim,

Yes but the messages from VO1NA took = much=20 longer to decode at limilar distances. I don't know exactly, i think = it was=20 something between 4...6 days to produce a decode at DL0AO ?
But = that was=20 with a longer TX period and in the deep winter. Not to think about the = local=20 noise differences and antenna directivity... Jay uses a pure = omni-directional=20 E field probe whereas DL0AO used a software combined cardioid antenna = pointing=20 to EW exactly.
In the end there are some uncertainties which makes = it hard=20 to determine the actual E-W/W-E attenuation. But it looks like = something=20 between 10...20 dB is a good estimate.

Depending on the time it = needs=20 to produce a lucky 5 character decode at W1VD, i will soon move to = 17.47 kHz=20 again to start experimenting with Edgar in VK7, just a path of 16805 = km (http= ://k7fry.com/grid/?qth=3DQE37PD35&from=3Djn49ik00wd).
Then=20 at night we can try to transfer a message to W1VD at 17.47 kHz to see = the=20 difference of the attenuation. The old graphs suggest a big difference = but i=20 bet it is not much, maybe 6 dB.

73, Stefan



Am = 26.02.2018=20 15:15, schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:=20

Stefan,

Thank=20 you for the reminder. All of the permeable-core selection/placement = and=20 winding improvements come to mind when you mention that number.=20

Correcting=20 the sentence below: =E2=80=9C(ERP ratio 16dB)=E2=80=A6offset=20 a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio (9 dB EW/WE ratio for 6Mm path) = by=20 7dB.

Excellent=20 ERP, and glad that Markus pointed out the quantitative consistency = of=20 same-month E-W and W-E link results with non-reciprocity at 8270=20 Hz.

73,

Jim=20 AA5BW

    

From:=20 owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org]=20 On Behalf Of DK7FC
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 = 6:34=20 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Subject:=20 Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more=20 success!

Thanks Jim,

ERP is 400 uW. Often = discussed but my=20 statement here :-)

73, Stefan

Am 26.02.2018 04:31, = schrieb hvanesce@comcast.net:

Congratulations=20 Jay and Stefan, and thanks Markus for the perspectives and reference = points.=20 I have a rough recollection of Stefan=E2=80=99s estimated ERP, which = would seem to=20 slightly more than offset a nominal E-W/W-E attenuation ratio, = making=20 Markus=E2=80=99 two propagation observations particularly = interesting, as is the=20 Forest question.

Fine=20 work Stefan and Jay.

73,

Jim=20 AA5BW   

From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] = On=20 Behalf Of Markus Vester
Sent: Sunday, February 25, = 2018 2:25=20 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject:<= /B>=20 Re: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz EbNaut more=20 success!

Hi Jay, = Stefan,=20

really good work, truly amazing!

Noticing that = Stefan=20 hadn't sent another repeat last=20 night 24/25th, I wondered whether the experiment = might=20 have already been concluded successfully - yes it had=20 ;-)

Considering that Joe has been making the TA W-E = path=20 with only 10 uW, in retrospective it seems not so surprising = that=20 Stefan's much stronger signal managed to overcome the=20 E-W nonreciprocity. On the other hand, when Uwe had = sent a=20 very long carrier in March 2014, no conclusive trace was = ever=20 detected in Virginia. Now I wonder whether Stefan's recent = transmission has also been picked up in Forest?

All the=20 best,
Markus = (DF6NM)  


-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche=20 Mitteilung-----
Von: jrusgrove <jrusgrove@comcast.net>
An: (rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschic= kt:=20 So, 25. Feb 2018 19:26
Betreff: LF: VLF DK7FC > W1VD 8.27 kHz = EbNaut=20 more success!


Stefans = transmission:

f =3D = 8270.1000=20 Hz
Start time: = 19.FEB.2018 =20 22:30:00 UTC (daily)
Symbol period: 30=20 s
Characters:=20 2
CRC bits:=20 22
Coding=20 16K21A
Duration: 07:12=20 [hh:mm]
Antenna current: 700=20 mA

After a = successful one character reception earlier in the week, we can now = report=20 the successful reception of a 2 character message. Stacking of = 3 =20 transmissions was required (0221, 0222 and 0223). There is = also=20 a 0224 file but it has timing issues and may or may not be = usable.=20

ebnaut-rx=20 V0.8
input file C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223.wav
sample rate = 0.457240 per=20 second
rx frequency 8270
file start time 2018-02-22=20 22:21:17.790
polynomial 16K21A
crc size 22
number of chars=20 2
block size 34
symbol period 30.000
number of symbols = 864
start=20 offset 537.000
freq offset 0.100000
cores 2
list length=20 500000
skipped 538.011261 seconds to start
initial reference = phase=20 30.6
---------------------------------------------
found = DX
list=20 rank 48426
reference phase 150,150,150,150
carrier S/N 11.04 = dB in=20 38.6 uHz, -33.10 dB in 1Hz, -67.08 dB in 2.5kHz
carrier Es/N0 = -18.33=20 dB
carrier Eb/N0 0.47 dB
info bit period 2273.68 = seconds
symbol=20 error rate 373/864 =3D 43.171 %
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.2 = dB
Eb/N0=20 from symbol errors 0.6 dB
Shannon capacity 2.5 = bits/hour
Shannon=20 efficiency 62.7 %
symbols file=20 C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
elapsed 52=20 seconds
---------------------------------------------
found = DX
list=20 rank 17074
reference phase 120,150,120,150
carrier S/N 11.19 = dB in=20 38.6 uHz, -32.94 dB in 1Hz, -66.92 dB in 2.5kHz
carrier Es/N0 = -18.17=20 dB
carrier Eb/N0 0.62 dB
info bit period 2273.68 = seconds
symbol=20 error rate 374/864 =3D 43.287 %
Es/N0 from symbol errors -18.4 = dB
Eb/N0=20 from symbol errors 0.4 dB
Shannon capacity 2.6 = bits/hour
Shannon=20 efficiency 60.5 %
symbols file=20 C:\EbNaut\DK7FC\sum212223-symbols.csv
elapsed 383=20 seconds

Jay = W1VD =20 WD2XNS  WE2XGR/2

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