Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1170; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_50_60,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t83KSg2N024555 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2015 22:28:42 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZXb4k-0005MI-LN for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:25:38 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZXb4k-0005M9-5F for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:25:38 +0100 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXb3b-0001dz-13 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 21:25:37 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.150.81.63]) by mwinf5d07 with ME id CkQF1r00E1My6Xz03kQFct; Thu, 03 Sep 2015 22:24:16 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2015 22:24:16 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.150.81.63 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B1E00EE@servigilant.vigilant.local> <786771441303722@web14j.yandex.ru> <55E8A0D5.2060906@no3m.net> In-Reply-To: <55E8A0D5.2060906@no3m.net> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:24:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: 9017a7d08549f027bd898f75bf2c87dd Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008E_01D0E68E.E27187A0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4034 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01D0E68E.E27187A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Noted Eric=20 Yes , All opera decodes are uploaded to the psk-reporter data = base ,that can be accessed by a traditional SQL search , with = number of days and the call sign Opera -Dynamic spots from the low level detector , deployed after = Opera fails on 477/136, op8-33dB op32 -40 db are 'now' V 1-5-8 only routed to other Opera users via the = web-linked 'validation' system which pools time data from other users , All other bands/ speeds 30 seconds to 4 Hours are single Opera = data mode only ,=20 73-Graham G0NBD Contact , Philip Gladstone for additional information, as far as I = know the data base spans a considerable time=20 philip@gladstonefamily.net Just set the parameter senderCallsign=3Dxxxxx rather than = receiverCallsign=3Dxxxxx callsign=3Dxxxxx does both send and receive reports..=20 cut and paste into web-browser data is recovered in a zipped excel = file . http://pskreporter.info/cgi-bin/pskdata.pl?days=3D7&receiverCallsign=3Dsp= 5xsb http://pskreporter.info/cgi-bin/pskdata.pl?days=3D7&senderCallsign=3DWG2X= RS From: Eric NO3M=20 Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 8:34 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures As Tobias correctly points out, the erroneous decode Mike experienced = was a result of correlation with a previous, correctly decoded signal = from DK7FC. This permits correlating partial data transmissions, such = as when compound calls or XXNNxx grids are used that cannot be encoded = in a single transmission. There should be a expiration on the = hash-table, but apparently not, since it's probably been quite a while = since Mike actually decoded transmissions from Stefan on 630M. This is = not a correlation decode from a user created or Internet derived = callsign list. The idea of correlating signals against a user created or Internet = derived callsign list is silly in the context of what WSPR is intended = for. WSPR is more or less a scientific instrument, for the purpose of = acquiring propagation data. Sure, people use it for other agendas and = get thrilled about deep decodes, but WSPR is not a player in the "how = weak can we go" arms race. Using a call list table would skew data and = in the context of propagation, fringe decodes (-30 and below) are more = noise than indicative. OPERA and WSPR are like comparing apples and oranges. Is OPERA a = serious propagation tool... maybe in some cases. Is there a historic = database somewhere that one can download to perform propagation studies? 73 Eric NO3M / WG2XJM On 09/03/2015 02:33 PM, Graham wrote: Of course Roman , can have funny wrong call's any data mode = will make those , more funny is people compare data decoding = with correlation detection and not realise why correlation has = lower s/n , and particularly hilarious is those who know what's = happening and don't tell anyone . Opera only deploys dynamic on 477/136 , the HF to SHF are all = simply data decodes, where as the Magic Mode has mixed = correlation and decoding on all bands , which explains how it = survives Doppler spreads 3 times its b/w on 10 MHZ and even works = , some times on vhf .. mfsk can be correlated , just the same as = ook , the time locking has more to do with pattern matching, = than decoding data . As some one pointed out , 'What ever colour the cat , as long as = it catches the mouse' just in this case , the cat's out of the = bag and it turns out , there are more than one in there . G , ,) From: Roman=20 Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 7:08 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures Graham I rx too mny false and fantoms in OPERA for long 3 years. As usual this is not real calls. 03.09.2015, 19:20, "Graham" : That's interesting Luis ..one those . the kings not wearing = anything moment's jiji By the qrg 400k , this was a wspr 2 TX ? So the only way Stefan's call sign could be recovered is = from the look up table as part of a correlation process [ see = other linking posts] Its IMPOSSIBLE for Opera to produce such false Decode =20 But if you mean DYNAMIC Detection , has Ghosts , that's true = for any correlation system and the ghosts always take on real = life forms=20 However the Phantom , has provided a Time stamp Ghost Buster = validation system . something wspr cannot as it already uses the = web for time locking , oddly , accurate time is required for a = correlation system ... People are not too sure of the difference between Decode = and Detection , but those who do , like the extra dB's one gives = over the other=20 As I noted previously=20 ''no one minds a bit of the 'Old Jaspers' as long as its not = take too seriously''=20 6 meters is known as the Magic band , may be wspr should be = the 'Magic' Mode=20 73-G, From: VIGILANT Luis Fern=C3=A1ndez Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:28 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures Hi Mike, MF From my records last night, DK7FC was transmiting in 06-16-26-36 ... = periods, but not at 23:04 The locator shown in your decode is also wrong The closest frame to the time you decoded was at 23:06 2306 -21 -1.2 0.475684 0 DK7FC JN49 30 Not only Opera has its ghost ! ;-) PS: I'm QRV again. Back from a 15 days vacation trip 73 de Luis EA5DOM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de Michael Sapp Enviado el: jueves, 03 de septiembre de 2015 2:19 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; lowfer@mailman.qth.net Asunto: LF: Odd sunset captures Hi All: I'm not sure what to think of this.... https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwnopmbl2fz5ye5/IMG_4537.JPG?dl=3D0 I have been experimenting with IF shifting my radio to get WG2XJM = very strong signal 10 to 13 dB down the IF bandpass curve to improve weak signal reception of other stations when Eric = is transmitting. Odd sunset partial captures appear to be transatlantic, but I am not sure about reality with this data. = My EWE antenna was configured to favor a SE direction, but with 120 degree 3dB beam width pattern it covers the NE as well. Long = distance transition zone propagation is a possibility, but I would be hesitant to claim it not having received correct grid = square information...... 73, Mike wa3tts --=20 73! Roman, RW3ADB ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01D0E68E.E27187A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Noted Eric
 
Yes , All opera  decodes  are  uploaded to  = the =20 psk-reporter  data  base ,that  can be  = accessed =20 by  a  traditional  SQL  search  , with  = number=20 of  days  and  the  call  sign
 
 
 Opera -Dynamic  spots  from the  low level = detector ,=20 deployed  after  Opera  fails on 477/136,   = op8-33dB=20   op32 -40 db
are  'now'  V 1-5-8 only  routed to  = other =20 Opera  users  via  the  web-linked  = 'validation'=20 system
which  pools  time  data  from  = other  users=20 ,
 
All  other  bands/ speeds   30 seconds to  = 4 =20 Hours   are  single  Opera  data  mode  = only ,=20
 
73-Graham
G0NBD
 
 
Contact , Philip  Gladstone for  additional =20 information, as far as I know the  data  = base  spans  a=20 considerable  time
 
    philip@gladstonefamily.net=
 
 
Just set the parameter senderCallsign=3Dxxxxx rather than=20 receiverCallsign=3Dxxxxx
 
callsign=3Dxxxxx does both send and receive reports..
 
cut and  paste into web-browser data  is  recovered = in=20 a zipped   excel  file .
 

http://pskreporter.info/cgi-bin/pskdata.pl?days=3D7&= ;receiverCallsign=3Dsp5xsb
 

http://pskreporter.info/cgi-bin/pskdata.pl?days=3D7&s= enderCallsign=3DWG2XRS
 
 
 
 
 

From: Eric NO3M
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures

As Tobias correctly points out, the erroneous decode Mike = experienced was a result of correlation with a previous, correctly = decoded=20 signal from DK7FC.  This permits correlating partial data = transmissions,=20 such as when compound calls or XXNNxx grids are used that cannot be = encoded in a=20 single transmission.  There should be a expiration on the = hash-table, but=20 apparently not, since it's probably been quite a while since Mike = actually=20 decoded transmissions from Stefan on 630M.  This is not a = correlation=20 decode from a user created or Internet derived callsign list.

The = idea of=20 correlating signals against a user created or Internet derived callsign = list is=20 silly in the context of what WSPR is intended for.  WSPR is more or = less a=20 scientific instrument, for the purpose of acquiring propagation = data. =20 Sure, people use it for other agendas and get thrilled about deep = decodes, but=20 WSPR is not a player in the "how weak can we go" arms race.  Using = a call=20 list table would skew data and in the context of propagation, fringe = decodes=20 (-30 and below) are more noise than indicative.

OPERA and WSPR = are like=20 comparing apples and oranges.   Is OPERA a serious propagation = tool...=20 maybe in some cases.  Is there a historic database somewhere that = one can=20 download to perform propagation studies?

73 Eric NO3M / = WG2XJM

On 09/03/2015 02:33 PM, Graham = wrote:
Of course  Roman ,  can have  funny  = wrong =20 call's  any data  mode  will  make those , =20 more  funny  is  people  compare   data=20 decoding  with  correlation detection  and  = not =20 realise why   correlation has  lower   = s/n  ,=20 and particularly  hilarious  is  those  = who =20 know  what's  happening  and don't  tell  = anyone=20 .
 
Opera only  deploys  dynamic  on  477/136 , = the =20 HF to SHF  are all  simply  data  decodes,=20 where  as  the  Magic Mode has  mixed =20 correlation  and  decoding  on all  bands ,=20 which  explains  how it  survives  Doppler = spreads  3=20 times  its  b/w  on 10 MHZ and even  works , = some=20 times  on vhf ..  mfsk can be correlated  , just = the  same=20 as  ook  ,   the  time  locking  = has more=20 to do  with  pattern  matching, than  = decoding  data=20 .
 
As some one  pointed out ,  'What ever colour = the =20 cat , as long as  it  catches  the  mouse'  = just in=20 this  case , the  cat's  out of the bag and  = it =20 turns out , there  are  more than  one  in there = .
 
G , ,)
 
 
 
 

From: Roman =
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 7:08 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures

Graham I rx too mny false and fantoms in OPERA for long 3 = years.
As usual this is not real calls.
 
 
03.09.2015, 19:20, "Graham" <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>:
That's  interesting  Luis ..one  those  . = the =20 kings  not  wearing  anything   = moment's =20 jiji
 
By the  qrg 400k  , this  was a  = wspr =20 2  TX ?
 
So the  only  way  Stefan's  = call =20 sign  could be  recovered   is from the  = look =20 up  table as  part of a  correlation  process [ = see=20 other  linking posts]
 
Its  IMPOSSIBLE   for  = Opera =20 to  produce  such false  Decode  =
 
But if you  mean  DYNAMIC Detection =  ,=20 has  Ghosts ,  that's  true for  any =20 correlation  system   and the  ghosts = always  take=20 on real life  forms 
 
However the  Phantom , has  provided  = a =20 Time  stamp   Ghost  = Buster =20 validation  system  . something  wspr cannot as = it =20 already uses the  web  for  time  locking , = oddly ,=20 accurate  time is required for  a  correlation =20 system ...
 
People  are  not  too  sure  of = the =20 difference  between  Decode  and=20 Detection  ,    but those  who do = , like=20 the  extra  dB's one  gives  over the =20 other 
 
As I  noted  previously 
 
''no  one minds a  bit of the   = 'Old=20 Jaspers'  as  long as its not take too  seriously''=20
 
6 meters  is  known as the  Magic  band = ,  may=20 be  wspr  should be   the  = 'Magic'  =20 Mode 
 
73-G,
 
 
From: VIGILANT = Luis=20 Fern=C3=A1ndez
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:28 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF: RE: Odd sunset captures
 
Hi Mike,=20 MF
 
From my records=20 last night, DK7FC was transmiting in 06-16-26-36 ... = periods,=20 but not at 23:04
The locator=20 shown in your decode is also wrong
 
The closest=20 frame to the time you decoded was at 23:06
2306 -21 -1.2 0.475684 = 0=20 DK7FC JN49 30
 
Not only = Opera has its=20 ghost ! ;-)
 
PS: I'm QRV = again. Back=20 from a 15 days vacation trip
 
73 de=20 Luis
EA5DOM
 
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] = En nombre=20 de Michael Sapp
Enviado el: jueves, 03 de septiembre = de 2015=20 2:19
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; lowfer@mailman.qth.net
Asunto: = LF: Odd=20 sunset captures
 
Hi All: I'm not sure what to think = of=20 this....
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xwnopmbl2fz5ye5/IMG_45= 37.JPG?dl=3D0
 
I have been experimenting with IF = shifting my=20 radio to get WG2XJM very strong signal 10 to 13 dB down the IF=20 bandpass
 
curve to improve weak signal = reception of other=20 stations when Eric is transmitting.  Odd sunset partial = captures=20 appear
 
to be transatlantic, but I am not = sure about=20 reality with this data. My EWE antenna was configured to favor a SE=20 direction, but with
 
120 degree 3dB beam width pattern = it covers the=20 NE as well.   Long distance transition zone propagation is = a=20 possibility, but I
 
would be hesitant to claim it not = having=20 received correct grid square information......
 
73, Mike = wa3tts
 
 
--
73!
Roman, RW3ADB
 

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