Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mk03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 3B162380000AA; Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Trri0-00077M-LG for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:00:20 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Trrhz-00077D-Li for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:00:19 +0000 Received: from smtpout4.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.68] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Trrhw-0001Gw-2B for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:00:18 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.46.248]) by mwinf5d52 with ME id kezr1k00K5MGj1N03ezrlC; Sun, 06 Jan 2013 15:59:55 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <50e8bd40.2758b40a.6459.ffffc277@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: <50e8bd40.2758b40a.6459.ffffc277@mx.google.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 14:59:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Yes JIm, , I seem to of started something here There are speech transmission popping up in the strangest of place's , even on 136 Khz ! I thought from the xdv post there was some form of qrss level signal running mid band , not Chris running low power trial ! [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.68 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 7443af0fcc10a6529d32542762f43243 Subject: Re: LF: AM on 472kHz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C3_01CDEC1E.7A9F0BB0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d618750e991cc0aa5 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01CDEC1E.7A9F0BB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes JIm, , I seem to of started something here =20 There are speech transmission popping up in the strangest of = place's , even on 136 Khz ! I thought from the xdv post there was some form of qrss level = signal running mid band , not Chris running low power trial ! Apologies to Chris over that ! Pete seems to of taken some flack = from a regulatory stance as well =20 however its broken the ice , if we can get Colin back on board , = then all is back to normal =20 73 -G=20 From: James Cowburn=20 Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 11:54 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: AM on 472kHz Well written Chris =20 I do think those of us who are all "hot under the collar" about things = on 472 etc would do well to take a step back, a couple of deep breaths, = and remember that it's a hobby. It is not the "be all and end all" and = it certainly is not worth falling out over. =20 Good lord, if this was our children in the playground then we'd be = giving them a lecture on "perspective" and "balance". We'd do well to = reflect on that ourselves lest we make complete a***s of ourselves. =20 We've only had 472 for some 6 days or 18 if you count the day of the NOV = nonsense and it's caused no end of rows and flounces. Great Scott!! = Let's all take a chill pill or in my case a nice slug of single malt and = reflect more on how to persuade our largely sub optimal antennae to = radiate more (unless you live in Scarborough! Lol only a joke Mal!) = rather than the minutae of political/academic point scoring b***ocks. =20 I for one have now tamed my USB/interface woes and will be on CW in the = morning hopefully with XIZ et al on the morning net at about 0930 or = 1000 =20 See you all then and please Gentlemen, let's relax a little=20 =20 With my kind regards =20 =20 Jim G7NKS =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Osborn Sent: 05 January 2013 21:56 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: AM on 472kHz =20 AM on 472 KHz There has been some emotive discussion about the use of AM on the 472 = kHz band. In the first instance I must admit to having used AM on that band for = local QSO's and for test transmissions. I have been running 5 watts of RF into my inverted 'L' aerial: length = 43m, height 10m=20 Assuming that my field strength is not dissimilar to the measurements I = made on 502 kHz then my ERP was in the order of 50 mW. The total sideband power with 100% modulated signal would be 25 mW - I = run at only 50% modulation. For several consecutive evenings I have put out 'test' transmissions on = 475 kHz giving my station call sign and locator and asking for signal = reports. Apart from a select few local stations who were specifically listening = the only other station having reported hearing me was G3XDV, some 20 = miles distant. The NOV does not stipulate that AM is not permitted in the MF band and = of course the only QRG suitable must necessarily be mid-band. I find it inconceivable that with such low radiated power levels any = amateur could cause interference to a commercial transmission. In that unlikely eventuality then the offending station would be = identified and shut down. Regarding interference to other amateur users on the band: Having been one of the most active amateurs on 501-504 kHz I am aware of = just how difficult it is to even 'hear' many stations on MF. Furthermore no amateur worthy of the name would wish to cause QRM to his = fellow users. What then is the objection to the use of low power AM on MF ? I shall of course and as always adhere to my license conditions and = official "gentlemen's agreements" regarding band plans. 73 Chris G3XIZ =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Roger Lapthorn To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" =20 Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 19:45 Subject: Re: LF: AM on 472kHz =20 Pete, Honestly, is this helpful?=20 I have a lot of respect for Mike and others like him, and this sort of = attitude is totally uncalled for. 73s Roger G3XBM =20 =20 On 5 January 2013 18:46, M0FMT wrote: Hi Mike =20 We know the RSGB owns the spectrum and want to control every issue to do = with it like they messed up VHF particularly 4m with their policemen = making life for anyone without the =A35000 pound rig advertised in the = RADCOM not welcome if your centre frequency was not with a few cycles on = the channel. =20 Your e-mail to me a while ago about my paltry 50watts on 136, but I = never complained about your 1000watts that flattened signals I wanted to = listen too on the band. So why do the pigeon whole brigade, with nice = neat lists that have have entry numbers, of things that can be done and = can't be done the policeman's charter that makes other peoples life a = misery with "I'm alright jack" attitude and limits experimentation. = These may not be of the PhD variety but are of the self training variety = which is the Amateur radio licence variety. =20 I don't give a toss about the RSGB 's rules and I will use the spectrum = within sensible limits how I want and in line with what is in my = licence. =20 You are an RSGB policeman just like the crowd on VHF! clagging the bands = with repeaters and all sorts of junk and have the cheek to complain when = a real radio amateur wants to do some off the wall tests that with in = the acres of empty spectrum on VHF people who you never hear in qso = suddenly come up and say you can't do that here it's what your numbered = lists policies create. =20 And now you are doing it on 472/9. Sorry but its bonkers you are = creating clones out of radio ops who you don't want to trust with the = spectrum but its not your spectrum....... and in any case things have = changed in the world and I don't think people will stand for Diktat as = they might have done in the passed. =20 So long as us amateur stay inside the band limits and our EIRPs are = sensible that is all authority is expecting us to do and what else we do = I don't think they care about provided its not mischievous. Also my = guess is they will tolerate the odd transgression without comment unless = it is taking the Mickey out of our contract (the licence). =20 I would say cool the Captain Blimp approach and rub along with things = and they may not turn out to be as bad as you think. Alternatively some = of us who are fed up with lists with numbers will migrate out of amateur = bands and do our own thing like quite a few are doing, ever listened at = the ends of 80m 40m 20m etc there's a parallel universe of amateurs, = even though getting a licence is a doddle these days.... why? =20 Just get real and rub along with what people want to do, you will hardly = notice a bit of AM, like the RSGB call sign isn't it GB3FUN? =20 And if my electric bill could stand it I would probably run a KW like = you using an old Decca commercial TX with its whiskers ever looked at an = SDR waterfall? My 5watts tube tx a real threat? =20 Mike I won't apologies for the forgoing but I don't want to fall out = with anyone however it cannot be a one sided argument and Diktat and = toys out the pram is not the way to go, an arm round the shoulder does = more than any amount of "Laws" and lets face it no one will be hurt = (unless you put you fingers in that KW PSU you use on 136?). =20 Best regards 73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT IO91UX From: Mike Dennison To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013, 17:13 Subject: LF: AM on 472kHz =20 Making a complete mockery of any attempt to persuade users of=20 different modes to coexist responsibly, an AM QSO is now going on in=20 the middle of the band! I give up! Mike, G3XDV =20 --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ http://qss2.blogspot.com/ =20 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: = 01/02/13 ------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01CDEC1E.7A9F0BB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes  JIm,  , I seem to  of  started =20 something   here 
 
There  are  speech  transmission  popping  = up  in the  strangest of  place's   , even on 136 = Khz=20 !
 
I thought  from the  xdv post  there was some  = form of=20 qrss  level  signal  running mid  band , not  = Chris=20 running  low  power  trial !
 
Apologies  to  Chris over that !   Pete seems = to =20 of taken some  flack  from a  regulatory  stance = as =20 well 
 
however its broken the  ice , if  we can  get = Colin =20 back on board , then  all  is back to  normal  =
 
73 -G
 
 

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 11:54 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: RE: LF: AM on 472kHz

Well written=20 Chris

 

I do think = those of us=20 who are all =93hot under the collar=94 about things on 472 etc would do = well to take=20 a step back, a couple of deep breaths, and remember that it=92s a = hobby.  It=20 is not the =93be all and end all=94 and it certainly is not worth = falling out=20 over.

 

Good lord, if = this was=20 our children in the playground then we=92d be giving them a lecture on=20 =93perspective=94 and =93balance=94.  We=92d do well to reflect on = that ourselves=20 lest we make complete a***s of ourselves.

 

We=92ve only = had 472 for=20 some 6 days or 18 if you count the day of the NOV nonsense and it=92s = caused no=20 end of rows and flounces.   Great Scott!!  Let=92s all = take a chill=20 pill or in my case a nice slug of single malt and reflect more on how to = persuade our largely sub optimal antennae to radiate more (unless you = live in=20 Scarborough! Lol  only a joke Mal!) rather than the minutae of=20 political/academic point scoring b***ocks.

 

I for one = have now=20 tamed my USB/interface woes and will be on CW in the morning hopefully = with XIZ=20 et al on the morning net at about 0930 or = 1000

 

See you all = then and=20 please Gentlemen, let=92s relax a little

 

With my kind=20 regards

 

 

Jim=20 G7NKS

 

 

 

From: = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris = Osborn
Sent: 05 January 2013 = 21:56
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: AM on=20 472kHz

 

AM on=20 472 KHz

There has been some emotive discussion about the use of = AM on the=20 472 kHz band.

In the first instance I must admit to having used = AM on=20 that band for local QSO's and for test transmissions.

I have been = running=20 5 watts of RF into my inverted 'L' aerial: length 43m, height 10m =
Assuming=20 that my field strength is not dissimilar to the measurements I made on = 502 kHz=20 then my ERP was in the order of 50 mW.
The total sideband power with = 100%=20 modulated signal would be 25 mW - I run at only 50% = modulation.

For=20 several consecutive evenings I have put out 'test' transmissions on 475 = kHz=20 giving my station call sign and locator and asking for signal = reports.
Apart=20 from a select few local stations who were specifically listening the = only other=20 station having reported hearing me was G3XDV, some 20 miles = distant.

The=20 NOV does not stipulate that AM is not permitted in the MF band and of = course the=20 only QRG suitable must necessarily be mid-band.

I find it = inconceivable=20 that with such  low radiated power levels any amateur could cause=20 interference to a commercial transmission.
In that unlikely = eventuality then=20 the offending station would be identified and shut = down.

Regarding=20 interference to other amateur users on the band:

Having been one = of the=20 most active amateurs on 501-504 kHz I am aware of just how difficult it = is to=20 even 'hear' many stations on MF.
Furthermore no amateur worthy of the = name=20 would wish to cause QRM to his fellow users.

What then is the = objection=20 to the use of  low power AM on MF ?

I shall of course and as = always=20 adhere to my license conditions and official "gentlemen's agreements" = regarding=20 band plans.

73

Chris G3XIZ

 

 

From: Roger = Lapthorn=20 <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" = <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> =
Sent: Saturday, 5 January 2013,=20 19:45
Subject: Re: = LF: AM on=20 472kHz

 

Pete,

Honestly, is this helpful? =

I have=20 a lot of respect for Mike and others like him, and this sort of attitude = is=20 totally uncalled for.

73s

Roger=20 G3XBM

 

 

On 5 January=20 2013 18:46, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk>=20 wrote:

Hi=20 Mike

 

We=20 know the RSGB owns the spectrum and want to control every issue to do = with it=20 like they messed up VHF particularly 4m with their policemen making life = for=20 anyone without the =A35000 pound rig advertised in the RADCOM not = welcome if your=20 centre frequency was not with a few cycles on the=20 channel.

 

Your=20 e-mail to me a while ago about my paltry 50watts on 136,  but = I never=20 complained about your 1000watts that flattened signals I wanted to = listen too on=20 the band. So why do the pigeon whole brigade, with nice neat lists that = have=20 have entry  numbers, of things that can be done and can't be done = the=20 policeman's charter that makes other peoples life a misery with "I'm = alright=20 jack" attitude and limits experimentation. These may not be of the PhD = variety=20 but are of the self training variety which is the Amateur radio licence=20 variety.

 

I=20 don't give a toss about the RSGB 's rules and I will use the spectrum = within=20 sensible limits how I want and in line with what is in my=20 licence.

 

You=20 are an RSGB policeman just like the crowd on VHF! clagging the bands = with=20 repeaters and all sorts of junk and have the cheek to complain when a=20 real radio amateur wants to do some off the wall tests that with in = the=20 acres of empty spectrum  on VHF people who you never hear in qso = suddenly=20 come up and say you can't do that here it's what your numbered lists = policies=20 create.

 

 And = now you are=20 doing it on 472/9. Sorry but its bonkers you are creating clones = out of=20 radio ops who you don't want to trust with the spectrum but its not your = spectrum....... and in any case things have changed in the world and I = don't=20 think people will stand for Diktat as they might have done in the=20 passed.

 

So=20 long as us amateur stay inside the band limits and our EIRPs are = sensible that=20 is all authority is expecting us to do and what else we do I don't think = they=20 care about provided its not mischievous. Also my guess is they will = tolerate the=20 odd transgression without comment unless it is taking the Mickey out of = our=20 contract (the licence).

 

I=20 would say cool the Captain Blimp approach and rub along with things and = they may=20 not turn out to be as bad as you think. Alternatively some of us who are = fed up=20 with lists with numbers will migrate out of amateur bands and do our own = thing=20 like quite a few are doing, ever listened at the ends of 80m 40m 20m etc = there's=20 a parallel universe of amateurs, even though getting a licence is a = doddle these=20 days.... why?

 

Just=20 get real and rub along with what people want to do, you will hardly = notice a bit=20 of AM, like the RSGB call sign isn't it=20 GB3FUN?

 

And=20 if my electric bill could stand it I would probably run a KW like you = using an=20 old Decca commercial TX with its whiskers ever looked at an SDR = waterfall?=20 My 5watts tube tx a real threat?

 

Mike=20 I won't apologies for the forgoing but I don't want to fall out with=20 anyone however it cannot be a one sided argument and Diktat and = toys out=20 the pram is not the way to go, an arm round the shoulder does more than = any=20 amount of "Laws" and lets face it no one will be hurt (unless you put = you=20 fingers in that KW PSU you use on = 136?).

 

Best=20 regards 73 es GL es HNY Pete M0FMT = IO91UX

From: Mike=20 Dennison <mike.dennison@ntlworld.com<= /A>>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.= org=20
Sent: Saturday, 5 = January=20 2013, 17:13


Subject: LF: AM on=20 472kHz

 

Making a=20 complete mockery of any attempt to persuade users of
different = modes to=20 coexist responsibly, an AM QSO is now going on in
the middle of = the=20 band!

I give up!

Mike,=20 = G3XDV



 




-- =
 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/
http://qss2.blogspot.com/

 

No virus found in this=20 message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / = Virus=20 Database: 2637/6005 - Release Date: 01/02/13

------=_NextPart_000_00C3_01CDEC1E.7A9F0BB0--