Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 X-Spam-DCC: : mailn 1480; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by lipkowski.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id v3AKEZsn024970 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:14:36 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1cxfdR-0007qG-3F for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:10:01 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1cxfdQ-0007q2-7v for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:10:00 +0100 Received: from smtpout3.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.59] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1cxfdM-00016L-Jf for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:09:59 +0100 Received: from AGB ([95.148.100.65]) by mwinf5d45 with ME id 6k9u1v00b1QfCx303k9uRR; Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:09:55 +0200 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 22:09:55 +0200 X-ME-IP: 95.148.100.65 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <1294128911.20170408174233@gmail.com> <15b4f9773b2-2fd8-bf55@webprd-a08.mail.aol.com> <1316557940.20170410114729@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 21:09:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 170410-0, 10/04/2017), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Scan-Signature: 4933636f78fd1782d378a0372a2e835c Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007A_01D2B23E.CD0885D0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.75 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11211 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01D2B23E.CD0885D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any issues in switching modules in /out ... simply a multi primary tr= ansformer ? G, From: Andy Talbot Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:49 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ; rsgb_lf_group Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitters? Forget com= plicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate isolation. You are comb= ining identical signals so that sort of design is not required. BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter module to= separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer cor= e. Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through a low pas= s filter to your antenna. (But do size the core and turns for the TOTAL = power to be generated) As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, the volta= ge induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal to the = that delivered to it from Tx module 2 (and vice versa) so with both trans= mitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the secondary. you = are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an equal voltage deli= vered by both. You are, to all intents and purposes, connecting the trans= mitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered in total You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted - fo= r example the Decca ones have direct drive to the primary windings via a t= ank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-second= ary turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation. Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly when = non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources isola= ted. Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in point, where = the two test signals have to be summed without generating their own intermo= d products caused by the output of one source leaking into the (probably n= on-linear) output of the other. If that happened, self-generated IMPS that= could swamp those being tested-for. Andy G4JNT On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul wrote: Hi Chris, I've found additional info on the broadband Wilkinson combiner on my hard= disk, which I believe stems from an old ANZAC data book. The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can be made. Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits application n= ote with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the transformer and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with the bridging res= istor on the 25Ohm side. Beside the pictorial view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown fo= r better understanding. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson >Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM >To: Markus Vester >Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners > >Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who replied re my >combiner questions, > >Some great and patiently presented info here, thanks a bunch for >explaining it so well and in such detail. I now have a much better >grasp of how the wide and narrow band ones work and why a narrow band >combiner might work best with pre filtered outputs sent to its input. >I will build the W1VD design as I already have ferrites to do this, >before buying hard to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores for >building a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is not suitable >I may well buy 3 more iron cores and build a second LPF. I will also >try some low inductance resistors instead of the wire wounds, and look >at the wire wounds with my AIM analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to >mow the lawn or I won't get a lift to and from the pub tonight ;) > > >> Hi Chris, > >> either method should work: two separate T-type lowpass filters >> after each PA will reflect the harmonics before they reach the >> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadband combiner, which will >> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass instead of shunting >them to ground. > >> Best 73, >> Markus (DF6NM) > > > >-- >Best regards, > Chris mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01D2B23E.CD0885D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any issues  in  switching  modules  in /out  = =2E.. simply a  multi primary transformer ?
 
G, 

Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners - More

Why not keep it simple, and do it like the Decca transmitter= s?   Forget complicated splitters/combiners with messy deliberate isolation.  You are combining identical signals so that sort of design= is not required.

BEFORE any low pass filters, take each output of each transmitter modu= le to separate identical primary windings on one, normal ferrite transformer core.  Use a single secondary to take the combined power off through a= low pass filter to your antenna.   (But do size the  core and turns f= or the TOTAL power to be generated)

As both transmitter modules will be delivering identical outputs, the = voltage induced in primary 2 coil from Tx module 1 will be exactly equal to= the that delivered to it from Tx  module 2 (and vice versa)  so with = both transmitters operating correctly, the outputs will sum in the secondary. &n= bsp;  you are adding teh currents delivered by each stage, from an equal vo= ltage delivered by both.   You are, to all intents and purposes, connecting = the transmitters in parallel to multiply the current delivered in total

You can use the combining transformer for impedance matching if wanted= - for example the Decca ones  have direct drive to the primary windings = via a tank circuit and each of the ( In their case three) primary to single-secon= dary turns ration ratio sets the impedance transformation.

Isolating combiners like Wilkinsons only come into their own properly = when non-identical signals need to be summed while keeping the two sources isola= ted.    Intermod testing in receivers is a particular case in point, w= here the two test signals have to be summed without generating their own intermo= d products caused by  the output of one source leaking into the (probabl= y non-linear) output of the other.  If that happened, self-generated IMP= S that could swamp those being tested-for.

Andy  G4JNT




On 10 April 2017 at 19:20, Clemens Paul <cpaul@gmx.net> wrote:
Hi Chris,

I've found additional info on the broa= dband Wilkinson combiner on my hard disk,
which I believe stems from an old = ANZAC data book.
The info refers to T2 and there are two ways of how it can = be made.
Type 1 corresponds to the design shown in the mini circuits application note
with the bridging resistor on the 100Ohm side of the = transformer
and type 2 is exactly the design which Jay is using with t= he bridging resistor on the
25Ohm side.
Beside the pictorial view schematics and equivalent circuits are shown for better understanding.

73
Clemens
DL4RAJ


>-----Origina= l Message-----
>From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
>[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 12:47 PM
>To: Markus Vester
>Subject: Re: LF: Wilkinson combiners
>
>Hello Clemens, Markus, Alan, Graham and all who = replied re my
>combiner questions,
>
>Some  great&= nbsp; and  patiently  presented  info  here, thanks a bunch= for
>explaining  it  so  well  and in such deta= il. I now have a much better
>grasp  of how the wide and narrow band= ones work and why a narrow band
>combiner  might work best with pre= filtered outputs sent to its input.
>I  will  build = the W1VD design as I already have ferrites to do this,
>before  buying  hard  to get (in the UK) and costly big iron cores for
>building  a second W1VD LPF bank. If the W1VD combiner is= not suitable
>I  may  well buy 3 more iron cores and build a = second LPF. I will also
>try  some low inductance resistors in= stead of the wire wounds, and look
>at  the wire wounds with my AIM = analyzer. Thanks agin everyone. Off to
>mow the lawn or I won't get= a lift to and from the pub tonight ;)
>
>
>> Hi Chris,
>
>> either method should work: two separate T-type= lowpass filters
>> after each PA will reflect the harmonics befo= re they reach the
>> narrowband combiner. Or build Jay's broadband = combiner, which will
>> pass on the harmonics to the T-lowpass instead of shunting
>them to ground.
>
>> Best 73,
>> Markus (DF6NM)
>
>
>
>--
>B= est regards,
> Chris              &n= bsp;             mailto:dead_fets@gmail.com
>
&g= t;


Virus-= free. www.avast.com
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