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[195.171.43.25]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id cw10si13735764wib.61.2013.12.27.15.40.32 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) client-ip=195.171.43.25; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.171.43.25 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org) smtp.mail=owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; dkim=pass header.i=@mx.aol.com Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1VwgcA-00014F-4i for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 23:14:46 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Vwgc9-000146-80 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 23:14:45 +0000 Received: from omr-m09.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.82]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1Vwgc6-0004VY-5g for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 23:14:44 +0000 Received: from mtaout-mbe02.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mbe02.mx.aol.com [172.26.254.174]) by omr-m09.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 231C47000009C for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 18:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from White (95-91-238-155-dynip.superkabel.de [95.91.238.155]) by mtaout-mbe02.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPA id 077F1380000AC for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2013 18:14:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Markus Vester" To: References: <52BDD7FF.9060300@freenet.de>,<1CAAB4802E504192AD39BC56B0A49ECB@AGB> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 00:14:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1388186080; bh=nVkiUVMPMmhSXkuMDXHBW4QJgVvRbJSKiAr8Zucthxs=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GBwDesv0XgNndiu5yRm+Oy/Zf4xmnG4AsLiyle9nXUo0ojZcvcFFE30wSy1llmdk9 mvl6NyWlNRmSUSyO96fKSTkaSdyocgMzhrx68DfUPZiyxC82c/G1Np/vNitU12Re94 GI9/ybaK5fyDpsVIcD11qud5R4wmhdgEkZ4XigX8= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afeae52be09dc1dfb X-AOL-IP: 95.91.238.155 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Graham, Opera fans and critics, in my opinion, it's not one but really two different arguments: Yes, sharing source code is one. Surely one big motivation for spending time on amateur radio is learning. I'm curious to find out about the ways others are doing things, and expect them to be just as curious about mine. We are not only "users" but (by definition of being a ham) have an interest in the technology itself. That's why I prefer to share source code along with my humble (and sometimes ridiculous) programming attempts - ideally, ideas are free for all. [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [64.12.143.82 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.6 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 1.3 GAPPY_SUBJECT Subject: contains G.a.p.p.y-T.e.x.t 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 6e6737d1e6a7e25cb408a79619de24d3 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01CF0361.C94CD340" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=5.0 tests=GAPPY_SUBJECT,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2682 Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CF0361.C94CD340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Graham, Opera fans and critics, in my opinion, it's not one but really two different arguments:=20 Yes, sharing source code is one. Surely one big motivation for spending = time on amateur radio is learning. I'm curious to find out about the = ways others are doing things, and expect them to be just as curious = about mine. We are not only "users" but (by definition of being a ham) = have an interest in the technology itself. That's why I prefer to share = source code along with my humble (and sometimes ridiculous) programming = attempts - ideally, ideas are free for all.=20 But of course that's only my own preference, and I would surely respect = an author's decision to keep his code to himself. In any case, detailed = explanations about what a program or algorithm is doing are extremely = valuable. The other argument is about over-the-air protocols, which I would always = expect to be published. There used to be a "plain language" rule, which = formally made it illegal to use secret or encrypted codes in amateur = radio. It had to do with political neutrality and prevention of abuse, = but nowadays it still makes perfect sense to me. Open protocols also = allow others to develop alternative (and perhaps in some aspects better) = modulators and decoders. At least in principle, I would like to be able = to understand the meaning of every single bit or dit which is leaving my = antenna! In my opinion, it is not enough that "anyone can download" a piece of = proprietary software, allowing him to decode that secret protocol with = an undisclosed algorithm. How would you prove to a suspicious mind what = was really being exchanged over the air? Things are becoming even more = complex when extensive data transfer over the internet is involved. As = to myself, I can safely state that I haven't bothered to touch Opera = software before Guido reverse engineered the protocol and made it = publicly available. Just as well as I would rather avoid using = proprietary digital voice modes in ham radio. So much for my two cents... Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) PS emails from Blacksheep are still coming here in with large delays and = in wrong order. From: Graham=20 Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:23 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 Its the old source code argument=20 There are plenty of locked systems in use , source code comes under = 'IP' Intellectual Property rights , there is no need to disclose as = long as all can use the same , sure some would like to see = 'how' but that's another angle , same with encryption, DSSS numeric = based data modes like Olivia , chip64, contessa , ros hf as long as = the software has the same keys then that meets the requirements=20 The Opera decoder is a data decoder , Marcus is running = correlation , pattern matching , two different things entirely , one = has high equipment over heads , the other uses anti noise/ fec/afc = software routines to negate hardware affects on system performance and = counteract propagation conditions , Opera is a averaging system and = requires for a decode , the average of the min s/n , from 50% of = the data randomly dispersed along the time line , ie first 50 last = 50 or any 50%=20 G,=20 From: Bob Raide=20 Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 8:53 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 What your saying is for those of us wanting to improve things go play = with the other systems and leave OPERA just as it is? Bob =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 20:39:58 +0000 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 There are plenty of commercial data mode systems in use on the = Ham bands that are locked and not publicised , from my experience , = the locked systems seem to give a superior level of performance to = the open code versions , pactor-4 being a good example , using = modern ss techniques achieves high data/power ratio , but missing = is the cdma layer that would enhance b/w user efficiency , but = that exists in another locked data mode , which is free=20 So where /what is the problem ? G,=20 From: wolf_dl4yhf=20 Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 7:41 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 Thanks for forwarding the message Bob - so I won't spend any effort in = implementing Opera myself if Markus's DS algorithm is really embedded in = the Ros-software. Despite the fact that I don't like, and will not use, the original Opera = software myself as long as its author makes such a secret of it, leaving = it to others to reverse-engineer the algorithms. Cheers, Wolf . Am 27.12.2013 19:31, schrieb Bob Raide: Trevor and all; Especially #1!!! If that alone could be accomplished the rest later = would do just fine. Bob, WG2XRS/4-4000 meters, WE2XEB-2200 meters, = WE2XGR/6-630/600 meters-W2ZM... =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- To: O_P_E_R_A_@yahoogroups.com CC: tsmithers@cix.co.uk From: tsmithers@cix.co.uk Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:48:00 +0000 Subject: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for 2014 =20 A few thoughts for Opera enhancements VLF to 160m (1) Deep Search Detector built in to existing Opera system with = ability to run alongside existing=20 Op decoders and report directly to PSK reporter=20 (2) Reinstate the dual receive function without having to open = multiple instances of the software. (3) Dynamically resizable screen or replace the dials with led bar = type indicators - would make=20 the overall screen size a little smaller. (4) Option to "tear off" the waterfall to enable positioning on = another part of the monitor screen -=20 like wsprx for example. Trevor G0KTN __._,_.___Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a = New Topic Messages in this topic (1) =20 Recent Activity: a.. New Members 3=20 Visit Your Group=20 =20 Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest =95 Unsubscribe =95 Terms of Use = =95 Send us Feedback=20 . =20 __,_._,___ ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CF0361.C94CD340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Graham, Opera fans and = critics,
 
in my opinion, it's not one but really = two=20 different arguments:
 
Yes, sharing source code is = one. Surely=20 one big motivation for spending time on amateur radio is learning. I'm = curious=20 to find out about the ways others are doing things, and expect them = to be=20 just as curious about mine. We are not only "users" but = (by=20 definition of being a ham) have an interest in the technology itself. = That's why=20 I prefer to share source code along with my humble (and = sometimes=20 ridiculous) programming attempts - ideally, ideas are free for = all. 
 
But of course that's only my own = preference,=20 and I would surely respect an author's decision to keep = his code=20 to himself. In any case, detailed explanations about what = a=20 program or algorithm is doing are extremely valuable.
 
The other argument is about = over-the-air protocols,=20 which I would always expect to be published. There used to be a "plain = language"=20 rule, which formally made it illegal to use secret or encrypted = codes in=20 amateur radio. It had to do with political neutrality and prevention of = abuse,=20 but nowadays it still makes perfect sense to me. Open = protocols also allow=20 others to develop alternative (and perhaps in some aspects=20 better) modulators and decoders. At least in principle, I = would=20 like to be able to understand the meaning of every single bit or dit = which is=20 leaving my antenna!
 
In my opinion, it is not enough that = "anyone can=20 download" a piece of proprietary software, allowing him to decode that = secret=20 protocol with an undisclosed algorithm. How would you prove to a = suspicious=20 mind what was really being exchanged over the air? Things = are becoming=20 even more complex when extensive data transfer over the = internet is=20 involved. As to myself, I can safely state that I haven't bothered = to touch=20 Opera software before Guido reverse engineered the = protocol and=20 made it publicly available. Just as well as I would rather = avoid using=20 proprietary digital voice modes in ham radio.
 
So much for my two = cents...
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
 
PS emails from Blacksheep are still = coming here in=20 with large delays and in wrong order.
 
 
 

From: Graham
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

Its  the old source  code  = argument=20
 
There are plenty of  locked  = systems  in=20 use , source code comes under  'IP' Intellectual Property = rights ,=20 there is no  need  to  disclose  as  long = as =20 all  can  use  the  same , sure =20 some  would  like to  see  'how'  but = that's=20 another angle  , same  with  encryption, DSSS = numeric based=20 data  modes like  Olivia , chip64, contessa , ros hf =   as=20 long  as  the  software  has the  same  = keys =20 then that  meets the  requirements
 
The Opera  decoder is  a  = data =20 decoder ,  Marcus is  running  correlation , = pattern =20 matching , two  different things entirely , one has high =20 equipment  over heads , the  other  uses anti noise/ = fec/afc  software routines to  negate hardware affects on = system=20 performance and counteract propagation conditions , Opera  is = a =20 averaging  system and  requires  for a decode , the  = average  of  the  min s/n  , from 50% of the =20 data  randomly dispersed along the  time  line , ie first = 50  last 50  or  any 50%
 
G,
 

From: Bob Raide
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 8:53 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: RE: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

What your saying is for those of us wanting to = improve things=20 go play with the other systems and leave OPERA just as it is?=20 Bob
 
From: g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk
To= : rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Date:=20 Fri, 27 Dec 2013 20:39:58 +0000
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] = Opera=20 upgrades for 2014

There  are plenty of  commercial  data  = mode =20 systems  in use  on the  Ham bands  that  are=20 locked  and not  publicised , from  my experience , = the =20 locked systems seem to  give a  superior level  of = performance=20  to the  open    code  versions , = pactor-4 =20 being a  good  example , using  modern  ss = techniques =20 achieves  high data/power  ratio , but  missing  is=20 the  cdma  layer that  would  enhance  = b/w  user=20 efficiency  , but  that  exists in another locked = data =20 mode , which is  free
 
So  where /what  is the  problem ?
 
G,

From: wolf_dl4yhf
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 7:41 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

Thanks for forwarding the message Bob - = so I won't=20 spend any effort in implementing Opera myself if Markus's DS algorithm = is really=20 embedded in the Ros-software.
Despite the fact that I don't like, and = will=20 not use, the original Opera software myself as long as its author makes = such a=20 secret of it, leaving it to others to reverse-engineer the=20 algorithms.

Cheers,
  Wolf .

Am 27.12.2013 19:31, = schrieb=20 Bob Raide:
Trevor and all;
Especially #1!!!  If that alone = could=20 be accomplished the rest later would do just fine. Bob,=20 WG2XRS/4-4000 meters, WE2XEB-2200 meters, WE2XGR/6-630/600=20 meters-W2ZM...
 
To: O_P_E_R_A_@yahoogroups.com=
CC:=20 tsmithers@cix.co.uk
From: = tsmithers@cix.co.uk
Date: = Fri, 27 Dec=20 2013 16:48:00 +0000
Subject: [O_P_E_R_A_] Opera upgrades for=20 2014

 =20
A few thoughts for Opera enhancements VLF to=20 160m

(1) Deep Search Detector built in to existing Opera system = with=20 ability to run alongside existing
Op decoders and report directly = to PSK=20 reporter

(2) Reinstate the dual receive function without = having to=20 open multiple instances of the software.

(3) Dynamically = resizable=20 screen or replace the dials with led bar type indicators - would make =
the=20 overall screen size a little smaller.

(4) Option to "tear off" = the=20 waterfall to enable positioning on another part of the monitor screen = -=20
like wsprx for example.

Trevor G0KTN


__._,_.___
Reply via web post Reply=20 to sender Reply=20 to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) =
Recent Activity:=20 New Members 3
Visit Your Group
=20
Switch to: Text-Only,=20 Daily=20 Digest =95 Unsubscribe=20 =95 Terms of=20 Use =95 Send=20 us Feedback
.

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