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[77.248.65.57]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f47sm42615073eep.13.2013.03.06.05.57.06 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Mar 2013 05:57:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: From: Minto Witteveen To: References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> In-Reply-To: <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:57:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: My PIC software now does the following when starting a RTTY transmission: * Start the TX (mark) * wait 500 ms to ‘wake up’ the receiver to the mark * send two NULL characters to get the receiver in sync (probably not necessary?) * then (always) send a letter or figure shift depending on the first ‘real’ character to transmit. * then send the text [...] Content analysis details: (-0.7 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [74.125.83.41 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (minto.witteveen[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 5c5b8e1c608c920535b1da14f570e3ff Subject: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CB_01CE1A7A.DE544500" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-dc02.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d4082513750eb5dec X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01CE1A7A.DE544500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My PIC software now does the following when starting a RTTY = transmission: * Start the TX (mark) * wait 500 ms to =E2=80=98wake up=E2=80=99 the receiver to the mark * send two NULL characters to get the receiver in sync (probably not = necessary?) * then (always) send a letter or figure shift depending on the first = =E2=80=98real=E2=80=99 character to transmit. * then send the text -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 14:38 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20 That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it seems) = told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and = receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone =3D = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. Yes yes. BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical days did = we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the software = have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead of = Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being = RY with LetFig set wrong. Eddie 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the highest = RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent of which = sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the commercial = stations Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US used a = 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of either type = would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing was = mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing = sync. with simple mechanical governors. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old days=E2=80=99 = (amateur) RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the idling = position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would be = =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)=20 So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6 Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur reversed, as = in AFSK on USB). I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped = around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This = explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just right. This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the = high tone AND the low(est) frequency. What _is_ the consensus (if any)? 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol Graham Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other = Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless = the REV is pressed. From Wiki the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).=20 Another site says You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether the = lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds to = "Mark" or "space"). Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says. Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier waves to = allow for the original signals to come through Eddie ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01CE1A7A.DE544500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My PIC software now does the following when starting a = RTTY=20 transmission:
* Start the TX (mark)
* wait 500 ms to =E2=80=98wake = up=E2=80=99 the=20 receiver to the mark
* send two NULL characters to get the receiver = in sync=20 (probably not necessary?)
* then (always) send a letter or figure = shift=20 depending on the first =E2=80=98real=E2=80=99 character to = transmit.
* then send the=20 text

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 14:38
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol
 
On=20 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems)=20 told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender = and=20 receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone = =3D highest=20 frequency. So USB if AFSK is used.
Yes=20 yes.

BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the = mechanical days=20 did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software have=20 problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead of Letters. = This can=20 be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being RY with LetFig set = wrong.

Eddie

 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with = mechanical=20 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone)  It = was=20 independent of which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode = used by=20 the commercial stations
Remember only European lines used = bi-polar=20 signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A = mechanical=20 machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held in = Mark.=20 Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain = character=20 timing sync. with simple mechanical governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Minto Witteveen
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, = 2013 11:09=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY = Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old = days=E2=80=99  (amateur) RTTY was done = with the rig=20 in LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz = and=20 mark being the idling position, when using LSB the actual = transmitted=20 frequencies would be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)
So = MTTY seems to assume rig at=20 USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. = amateur=20 reversed, as in AFSK on USB).  I=20 just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) = and=20 space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by fldigi = because I=20 listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This explains why fldigi decodes = me (and Stefan)=20 just right.

This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means=20 AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est)=20 frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if = any)?

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just = confirmed=20 by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other Software. Others = idle on=20 the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless the REV is=20 pressed.


From Wiki
the upper tone = used for=20 idle condition (MARK).

Another site=20 says
You also have to switch the correct phase position = (whether=20 the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation = corresponds to=20 "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a Ham education site on = the=20 subject says.
Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the = carrier waves to=20 allow for the original signals to come = through

Eddie


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