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Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:52:46 +0000 From: Laurence KL7 L To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" Thread-Topic: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms Thread-Index: AQHTz/aRwNT9tFiV+kauTf4tA/DIyaP4UbeAgAAZ3gCAABHpHIAAC6PrgAAHYoCAACSn9oAACW6AgAAmjeU= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 20:52:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <162a4797468-1db9-bdf2@webjas-vae168.srv.aolmail.net> <1UQROqZht1.1c1VdzC0S69@optiplex980-pc> <3a0c0669-018b-13a7-b56b-dd3f63fab464@n1bug.com> <197556217.20180409124931@gmail.com> <37574432-b72e-f2d1-0e85-af19dd970817@n1bug.com> <4D19B3707137430CBE04857FBA5C80B1@gnat> <1b882ae9-fede-3ec4-256e-9b068d3acf99@n1bug.com> <1539CCA16B9A4092972CB000BE4C440A@DELL4>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:4709C6BB5631E4B8EB66552E9D3591C82755FDB96685BC3167BE62AF512945E5;UpperCasedChecksum:E969B1D3DF0FDA5C7DA74E6AD8A1DAD7AE4413BED03B66DBB45A36E0711BB99A;SizeAsReceived:7588;Count:46 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [b5l9jSJ6I0PLAGcmFMQEwggab3S31Rbu] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CY1NAM02HT045;7:4En2uxLFaxeSuoNXcwKBc6+UVIhpvRdbsxCEY4sOMJSllRv5wDCGVYZyWaaUvhmzlk0hFg+jeZj7t4GteloBWG9sqluchX1v+6g/mdvH4xLgFqbzwPuJAx4lCV/icSgY8ie5fVeEgJT7exgmbatL8oVUSi6PErK+wa+We5x4niLJ1O6AXTUbh9Vj9X1KdPG9jYh4zsGFVDQiJ7MOil4QpOQVhxHiGE0dyoJkn+Rnvq8XLiLy0kJEaoH5q11vrdkj x-incomingheadercount: 46 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(7020095)(201702061078)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031324274)(2017031323274)(2017031322404)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045);SRVR:CY1NAM02HT045; 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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Paul - Im running Jays design for the 1Kw version but with only 2 FETS in the final issues for me were secondary and primary winding on output were physically too loose and gave rise to too much leakage - made a huge difference to the ringing - they are really tight now [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (hellozerohellozero[at]hotmail.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 URIBL_SBL_A Contains URL's A record listed in the Spamhaus SBL blocklist [URIs: n1bug.com] 0.6 URIBL_SBL Contains an URL's NS IP listed in the Spamhaus SBL blocklist [URIs: n1bug.com] 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: c793d0c4de6e7a8e9de14f2dfb1e95c8 Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY4PR11MB19270572B3F85652A39C52CECFBF0CY4PR11MB1927namp_" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD,HTML_20_30, HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false --_000_CY4PR11MB19270572B3F85652A39C52CECFBF0CY4PR11MB1927namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Paul - Im running Jays design for the 1Kw version but with only 2 FETS in the fina= l issues for me were secondary and primary winding on output were physically = too loose and gave rise to too much leakage - made a huge difference to the= ringing - they are really tight now Im looking at your LPF and it "looks"your using the Orange drop Caps - I = found these to be lossy ESR wise on pulse solutions especially at 137 and c= onverted to WIMA poly props - I was seeing warm up and drift on the latter = - my 137kHz PA runs appx 1.4Kw and the caps are cool. Finally - it took me a while to figure out that when using the PC and WSJT = program to drive an external transverter or what ever make darn sure all ot= her audio sources are shut down - otherwise voice and adverts/music will be= mixed with your nice tones and this can (can) cause all sorts or issues, o= r did here. This took me over a year to figure out! My construction is dead bug style but I took to heart Jays comments on shor= t leads/decoupling - Im using a big Single WIMA FKP1 polyprop 1uF for C5 = - also using the Jay 4046 doubler which can be a little sensitive on the in= put so levels have to be checked it isn't producing anything untowards http://www.wimausa.com/EN/applicguide.htm vy 73 Laurence KL7L etc Application Guide for WIMA Capacitors - wimausa.com www.wimausa.com Automotive: Fields of Application : Safety: Auxiliaries: Powertrain: Featur= es: Airbag control unit : Braking system control unit (ABS/ESC) Tire pressu= re monitoring unit ________________________________ From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org on behalf of N1BUG Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 10:19 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms Jay, Oops. I took a picture of the LPF this morning and uploaded it to the server. Then I forgot to include the link in my earlier reply to you. Here it is: http://www.n1bug.com/vd-lpf.jpg [http://www.n1bug.com/vd-lpf.jpg] I used the same caps you did, .022 and .001 715P in parallel. I did mount them a bit differently. Here is an overlaid gate crossover: http://www.n1bug.com/gates4-wdv13.jpg That transformer very well may be my problem. I will have to find *much* softer wire that will take soldering heat before I can do any better. The trouble is knowing whether the insulation on wire can take any heat before ordering the stuff. For all current testing I am using the 3325B, 2Fo 5V square wave with 2.5V DC offset fed directly to the input of the driver board. The doubler is completely disconnected and not being used. Paul On 04/09/2018 01:41 PM, jrusgrove@comcast.net wrote: > Paul > > Thanks for the photos and information. I was more interested in the super= imposed gate waveforms than > the drains, though. A pix of the LPF as well would be appreciated ... thi= nk there was one last week. > Just for the record ... my doubler was never mounted inside the amplifier= ... so you are covering > new ground with that. I would think having it external to the amplifier w= ould be less problematic. > For testing, stick to driving it with the HP3325A for now ... which is wh= at you're most likely > already doing. > > Can't find much fault with the construction ... other than the somewhat l= oose primary winding on the > transformer. In mine, the primary winding was nestled inbetween the turns= of the secondary. This is > important to minimize leakage reactance ... which also contributes to exc= essive ringing. > > Think I would continue to concentrate on getting the ringing down before = going to high power. > > One other thing ... have you double checked that you have the correct cap= acitance in the LPF? > > Jay W1VD > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "N1BUG" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 11:34 AM > Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms > > >> Yep, voltage breakdown of the FETs was my worry. However I may be >> making a false assumption. I assumed the voltage spikes in the >> ringing would vary linearly with applied drain voltage? Perhaps that >> isn't necessarily so? >> >> With 13V on the drains the first spike here is 'about' 64V. >> >> Efficiency seems fine. I wouldn't try to put an exact figure to it >> what with measurement accuracy in three places (voltage, current, RF >> power) but it 'appears' to be in the mid 90s. >> >> Paul >> >> >> On 04/09/2018 11:02 AM, jrusgrove@comcast.net wrote: >>> Alan >>> >>> The main concern about the ringing is that the positive extreme stays b= elow the drain source >>> breakdown voltage ... with some 'headroom'. Otherwise ... >>> >>> Jay W1VD >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Alan Melia" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 10:21 AM >>> Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms >>> >>> >>>> Paul >>>> I think you need to step back from this a little. One point, design/ca= ble routing at 137kHz is >>>> normally not that critical and it is unlikely it is having much effect= . Many us have >>>> ''haywired'' >>>> PAs at these frequencies without major troubles....even using croc-lea= ds!! >>>> >>>> You are unhappy about the drain waveforms.......why?? the ringing is o= n the ''off'' device and >>>> so >>>> doesnt really matter in terms of efficiency. Consider what is happenin= g. The FET drive goes off >>>> and the drain current starts to drop inductance in the drain feed caus= es the voltage to rise to >>>> try to keep the current flowing. Then on top of this the other transis= tor switches on and the >>>> transformer connection for the off side sees a rising induced voltage = out of the transformer. >>>> There is bound to be overshoot but it does not absorb much power. It m= ay be the generous ''dead >>>> zone'' (whilst a good idea) that is producing this picture. >>>> >>>> The critical part is the the flat zero volt line when the FET is on. T= he current pulse rings a >>>> bit, but the current drops in the second half of the pulse.....why?? T= his, I think, is really >>>> the >>>> loss of power. Does Jay's show this? The point I am making is don't ge= t drawn up blind alleys >>>> because a trace just does not look ''pretty''. >>>> >>>> I think we have mentioned this before but the transient performance of= the power supply may be a >>>> factor. There should not be great changes in the current draw because = you are switching the PSU >>>> load from one transistor to the other but there can be higher speed tr= ansients that can affect >>>> power supply regulators in unexpected ways. >>>> >>>> As Andy said efficiency at 12v is not very meaningful because of the h= igh rds of these FETs. It >>>> is >>>> usefull to run up a PA at low volts say for safety when the antenna ne= eds to be tuned. >>>> >>>> Finally the scope probes are placing an. albeit small, capacitance acr= oss the drains (I am >>>> assuming they are correctly trimmed) The waveform can often be affecte= d by where the ground is >>>> picked up from. >>>> >>>> Stick with it because you are close to being ''there'' >>>> >>>> Alan >>>> G3NYK --_000_CY4PR11MB19270572B3F85652A39C52CECFBF0CY4PR11MB1927namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Paul -


Im running Jays design fo= r the 1Kw version but with only 2 FETS in the final


issues for me were second= ary and primary winding on output were physically too loose and gave rise t= o too much leakage - made a huge difference to the ringing - they are reall= y tight now


Im looking at your LPF an= d  it "looks"your using the Orange drop Caps  - I found= these to be lossy ESR wise on pulse solutions especially at 137 and conver= ted to WIMA poly props - I was seeing warm up and drift on the latter - my 137kHz PA runs appx 1.4Kw and the caps are cool.


Finally - it took me a wh= ile to figure out that when using the PC and WSJT program to drive an exter= nal transverter or what ever make darn sure all other audio sources are shu= t down - otherwise voice and adverts/music will be mixed with your nice tones and this can (can) cause all sorts or i= ssues, or did here. This took me over a year to figure out!


My construction is dead b= ug style but I took to heart Jays comments on short leads/decoupling - Im u= sing a big Single WIMA FKP1  polyprop 1uF for C5  - also using th= e Jay 4046 doubler which can be a little sensitive on the input so levels have to be checked it isn't producing anything unto= wards


http://www.wimausa.com/EN/ap= plicguide.htm

vy 73


Laurence KL7L etc


www.wimausa.com
Automotive: Fields of Application : Safety: Auxiliaries: Powertrain: Featur= es: Airbag control unit : Braking system control unit (ABS/ESC) Tire pressu= re monitoring unit




From: owner-rsgb_lf_group= @blacksheep.org <owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org> on behalf of N1B= UG <paul@n1bug.com>
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 10:19 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
 
Jay,

Oops. I took a picture of the LPF this morning and uploaded it to
the server. Then I forgot to include the link in my earlier reply to
you. Here it is:

http://www.n1bug.com/vd-lpf.jpg



I used the same caps you did, .022 and .001 715P in parallel. I did
mount them a bit differently.

Here is an overlaid gate crossover:

http://www.n1bug.com/gates4-wdv13.jpg

That transformer very well may be my problem. I will have to find
*much* softer wire that will take soldering heat before I can do any
better. The trouble is knowing whether the insulation on wire can
take any heat before ordering the stuff.

For all current testing I am using the 3325B, 2Fo 5V square wave
with 2.5V DC offset fed directly to the input of the driver board.
The doubler is completely disconnected and not being used.

Paul


On 04/09/2018 01:41 PM, jrusgrove@comcast.net wrote:
> Paul
>
> Thanks for the photos and information. I was more interested in the su= perimposed gate waveforms than
> the drains, though. A pix of the LPF as well would be appreciated ... = think there was one last week.
> Just for the record ... my doubler was never mounted inside the amplif= ier ... so you are covering
> new ground with that. I would think having it external to the amplifie= r would be less problematic.
> For testing, stick to driving it with the HP3325A for now ... which is= what you're most likely
> already doing.
>
> Can't find much fault with the construction ... other than the somewha= t loose primary winding on the
> transformer. In mine, the primary winding was nestled inbetween the tu= rns of the secondary. This is
> important to minimize leakage reactance ... which also contributes to = excessive ringing.
>
> Think I would continue to concentrate on getting the ringing down befo= re going to high power.
>
> One other thing ... have you double checked that you have the correct = capacitance in the LPF?
>
> Jay W1VD
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "N1BUG" <paul@n1bug.com>
> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
>
>
>> Yep, voltage breakdown of the FETs was my worry. However I may be<= br> >> making a false assumption. I assumed the voltage spikes in the
>> ringing would vary linearly with applied drain voltage? Perhaps th= at
>> isn't necessarily so?
>>
>> With 13V on the drains the first spike here is 'about' 64V.
>>
>> Efficiency seems fine. I wouldn't try to put an exact figure to it=
>> what with measurement accuracy in three places (voltage, current, = RF
>> power) but it 'appears' to be in the mid 90s.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On 04/09/2018 11:02 AM, jrusgrove@comcast.net wrote:
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> The main concern about the ringing is that the positive extrem= e stays below the drain source
>>> breakdown voltage ... with some 'headroom'. Otherwise ...
>>>
>>> Jay W1VD
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Alan Melia" <alan.melia@btinternet.com>=
>>> To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 10:21 AM
>>> Subject: Re: LF: W1VD amp help - more waveforms
>>>
>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> I think you need to step back from this a little. One poin= t, design/cable routing at 137kHz is
>>>> normally not that critical and it is unlikely it is having= much effect. Many us have
>>>> ''haywired''
>>>> PAs at these frequencies without major troubles....even us= ing croc-leads!!
>>>>
>>>> You are unhappy about the drain waveforms.......why?? the = ringing is on the ''off'' device and
>>>> so
>>>> doesnt really matter in terms of efficiency. Consider what= is happening. The FET drive goes off
>>>> and the drain current starts to drop inductance in the dra= in feed causes the voltage to rise to
>>>> try to keep the current flowing. Then on top of this the o= ther transistor switches on and the
>>>> transformer connection for the off side sees a rising indu= ced voltage out of the transformer.
>>>> There is bound to be overshoot but it does not absorb much= power. It may be the generous ''dead
>>>> zone'' (whilst a good idea) that is producing this picture= .
>>>>
>>>> The critical part is the the flat zero volt line when the = FET is on. The current pulse rings a
>>>> bit, but the current drops in the second half of the pulse= .....why?? This, I think, is really
>>>> the
>>>> loss of power. Does Jay's show this? The point I am making= is don't get drawn up blind alleys
>>>> because a trace just does not look ''pretty''.
>>>>
>>>> I think we have mentioned this before but the transient pe= rformance of the power supply may be a
>>>> factor. There should not be great changes in the current d= raw because you are switching the PSU
>>>> load from one transistor to the other but there can be hig= her speed transients that can affect
>>>> power supply regulators in unexpected ways.
>>>>
>>>> As Andy said efficiency at 12v is not very meaningful beca= use of the high rds of these FETs. It
>>>> is
>>>> usefull to run up a PA at low volts say for safety when th= e antenna needs to be tuned.
>>>>
>>>> Finally the scope probes are placing an. albeit small, cap= acitance across the drains (I am
>>>> assuming they are correctly trimmed) The waveform can ofte= n be affected by where the ground is
>>>> picked up from.
>>>>
>>>> Stick with it because you are close to being ''there''
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>> G3NYK

--_000_CY4PR11MB19270572B3F85652A39C52CECFBF0CY4PR11MB1927namp_--