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From: Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:19:51 +0100
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To: LineOne <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Subject: Re: LF: Receiver protection
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That preamp looks as if it would laugh at +5dB input and just amplify it
linearly - giving your Softrocka  run for itsmoney.

A  can see that preamp  easily surviving well over +20dBm input leakage.
Its dissipating something like 1 Watt in its own right, so you can quite
reasoably to expect it to be happy with even that sort of input.

So you could even contemplate pairs of series diodes to limit at a HIGHER
voltage and that way less of a compromise on strong signal handling that
input diodes always give you.

Mind you , on my 400W 475kHz Class-E amp, I do use a pair of relays,
terminating Rx in 50 ohms and measure 70dB attenuation.  But I do run Rx
into an SDR-IQ which is a bit more expensive to replace.  But even that can
survive over +20dBm.  I know, I've done it!

Andy
www.g4jnt.com


On 10 July 2018 at 20:03, N1BUG <paul@n1bug.com> wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> > I suggest to discuss along a concrete schematic that you could present
> > along with the question(s).
>
> Here is a simplified description of the setup. RX antenna (at the
> moment, but soon to change or have more than one choice)
>
> http://www.n1bug.com/lnv.jpg
>
> Then there is a two way splitter. One output feeds the LF RX system:
> band pass filter, preamp, band pass filter, receiver. The other
> output has the same line up but for MF.
>
> The preamps, with diodes added at the input
>
> http://www.n1bug.com/w1vd-pre2.png
>
> Finally the receivers (one for LF, one for MF)
>
> http://www.n1bug.com/srlite2.png
>
> These receivers may look too simple but with the filters and preamps
> have done quite well for me!
>
> I was hoping for something better than the diodes to put there at
> the preamp input. Something which would limit to a much lower level.
>
> For HF, a company called ICE used to make RX protectors (ICE-196)
> which use some kind of very small transformer on a ferrite core. I
> think the idea was the core saturates to provide limiting. But there
> were other parts, including diodes, resistor, capacitor. I have two
> of these, one is permanently connected to the RX antenna input on my
> FT-2000 transceiver. Unfortunately these do not work below 1 MHz.
> The insertion loss becomes very high at MF and LF.
>
> Probably the best, as many people have said, is to give up this
> silly idea of limiting at the RX front end and use a fast relay to
> disconnect RX antenna and put instead 50 ohm resistor on RX input.
> This we can say is quite safe for the receiver. :-)
>
> It's just some work. I have a FT-2000 which I use with home built
> down converters for CW and digital QSOs on MF and LF. I think there
> is 15 ms between FT-2000 PTT output going low and the beginning of
> RF output, so with a fast relay it should be OK.
>
> I also have a Ultimate 3S beacon transmitter. It provides +5V output
> for external T/R switching, supposedly with a programmable delay. I
> have it set to 50 ms now. I am sorry to say I do not completely
> trust this as there are some things which do not work quite as they
> should with this device. I don't know if the T/R delay is correct
> and reliable. I will try to measure it.
>
> The FT-2000 and all LF/MF receiving stuff is in one room, the ham
> shack. MF and LF down converters, amplifiers, and U3S are in another
> room, the lab or work shop. There was no more space in the ham
> shack. ;-) It's really quite silly to call that little room the lab
> or shop, because there is a ongoing radio construction project in
> every room of my house! The whole place is a work shop!
>
> Some time in the future I may be able to use my HP 3325B synthesizer
> with a linear PA to TX Ebnaut. I don't have any idea how I will
> provide proper timing to switch the RX input relay with that, but  I
> will worry about it later.
>
> For now I think I should just make the decision and do the work to
> make both the FT-2000 and the U3S (if its T/R delay is reliable) to
> switch a relay disconnecting the RX antenna during TX. Unless
> somebody has a better idea about serious limiting at the RX...
>
> >> I need to stop being lazy. ;-)
> >>
> > Oh oh, i know what you mean. Good point :-) I can observe the same
> > behaviour here. Sitting in front of the monitor, watching grabbers,
> > watching the WSPR map, programming some Linux stuff, playing with
> > SpecLab can be quite comfortable and relaxing. When looking back, 10
> > years ago i have been more spontaneous in doing portable experiments.
> > But can this tendency be stopped or is it hopeless? It could be helpful
> > to analyse the causes instead of 'fighting' against oneselve.
>
> Sounds like fun! I'm a little bit tired from building. I built all
> the LF and MF RX stuff including receivers, preamps, many filters,
> splitters and so on. I built the U3S, TX converters, TX antenna,
> variometers, transformers. I built a few LF and MF PAs before
> finding success... and success came after many weeks of tracking
> down trouble. Now I'm just finishing up the build of a power supply
> for the new LF PA, also doing a lot of work to make new and better
> cables to connect all this stuff together. I enjoy building stuff,
> but I am ready for a little break. All this has been a bit of a rush
> trying to get it all done as quickly as possible. After I finish the
> power supply, RX protection, and new RX antenna maybe I can rest and
> do some operating... ;-)
>
> 73,
> Paul
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">That preamp looks as if it would laugh at +5dB input and j=
ust amplify it linearly - giving your Softrocka=C2=A0 run for itsmoney.<div=
><br></div><div>A=C2=A0 can see that preamp=C2=A0 easily surviving well ove=
r +20dBm input leakage.=C2=A0 Its dissipating something like 1 Watt in its =
own right, so you can quite reasoably to expect it to be happy with even th=
at sort of input.</div><div><br></div><div>So you could even contemplate pa=
irs of series diodes to limit at a HIGHER voltage and that way less of a co=
mpromise on strong signal handling that input diodes always give you.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Mind you , on my 400W 475kHz Class-E amp, I do use a pa=
ir of relays, terminating Rx in 50 ohms and measure 70dB attenuation.=C2=A0=
 But I do run Rx into an SDR-IQ which is a bit more expensive to replace.=
=C2=A0 But even that can survive over +20dBm.=C2=A0 I know, I&#39;ve done i=
t!</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">Andy<div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><a href=3D"http://www.=
g4jnt.com" target=3D"_blank">www.g4jnt.com</a></span><br></div><div><br></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10 July 2018 at 20:03, N1BUG <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paul@n1bug.com" target=3D"_blank">paul@n1bug.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Stefan,<br>
<br>
&gt; I suggest to discuss along a concrete schematic that you could present=
 <br>
&gt; along with the question(s).<br>
<br>
Here is a simplified description of the setup. RX antenna (at the<br>
moment, but soon to change or have more than one choice)<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.n1bug.com/lnv.jpg" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.n1bug.com/lnv.jpg</a><br>
<br>
Then there is a two way splitter. One output feeds the LF RX system:<br>
band pass filter, preamp, band pass filter, receiver. The other<br>
output has the same line up but for MF.<br>
<br>
The preamps, with diodes added at the input<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.n1bug.com/w1vd-pre2.png" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.n1bug.com/w1vd-<wbr>pre2.png</a><br>
<br>
Finally the receivers (one for LF, one for MF)<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.n1bug.com/srlite2.png" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">http://www.n1bug.com/srlite2.<wbr>png</a><br>
<br>
These receivers may look too simple but with the filters and preamps<br>
have done quite well for me!<br>
<br>
I was hoping for something better than the diodes to put there at<br>
the preamp input. Something which would limit to a much lower level.<br>
<br>
For HF, a company called ICE used to make RX protectors (ICE-196)<br>
which use some kind of very small transformer on a ferrite core. I<br>
think the idea was the core saturates to provide limiting. But there<br>
were other parts, including diodes, resistor, capacitor. I have two<br>
of these, one is permanently connected to the RX antenna input on my<br>
FT-2000 transceiver. Unfortunately these do not work below 1 MHz.<br>
The insertion loss becomes very high at MF and LF.<br>
<br>
Probably the best, as many people have said, is to give up this<br>
silly idea of limiting at the RX front end and use a fast relay to<br>
disconnect RX antenna and put instead 50 ohm resistor on RX input.<br>
This we can say is quite safe for the receiver. :-)<br>
<br>
It&#39;s just some work. I have a FT-2000 which I use with home built<br>
down converters for CW and digital QSOs on MF and LF. I think there<br>
is 15 ms between FT-2000 PTT output going low and the beginning of<br>
RF output, so with a fast relay it should be OK.<br>
<br>
I also have a Ultimate 3S beacon transmitter. It provides +5V output<br>
for external T/R switching, supposedly with a programmable delay. I<br>
have it set to 50 ms now. I am sorry to say I do not completely<br>
trust this as there are some things which do not work quite as they<br>
should with this device. I don&#39;t know if the T/R delay is correct<br>
and reliable. I will try to measure it.<br>
<br>
The FT-2000 and all LF/MF receiving stuff is in one room, the ham<br>
shack. MF and LF down converters, amplifiers, and U3S are in another<br>
room, the lab or work shop. There was no more space in the ham<br>
shack. ;-) It&#39;s really quite silly to call that little room the lab<br>
or shop, because there is a ongoing radio construction project in<br>
every room of my house! The whole place is a work shop!<br>
<br>
Some time in the future I may be able to use my HP 3325B synthesizer<br>
with a linear PA to TX Ebnaut. I don&#39;t have any idea how I will<br>
provide proper timing to switch the RX input relay with that, but=C2=A0 I<b=
r>
will worry about it later.<br>
<br>
For now I think I should just make the decision and do the work to<br>
make both the FT-2000 and the U3S (if its T/R delay is reliable) to<br>
switch a relay disconnecting the RX antenna during TX. Unless<br>
somebody has a better idea about serious limiting at the RX...<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; I need to stop being lazy. ;-)<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt; Oh oh, i know what you mean. Good point :-) I can observe the same <br=
>
&gt; behaviour here. Sitting in front of the monitor, watching grabbers, <b=
r>
&gt; watching the WSPR map, programming some Linux stuff, playing with <br>
&gt; SpecLab can be quite comfortable and relaxing. When looking back, 10 <=
br>
&gt; years ago i have been more spontaneous in doing portable experiments.<=
br>
&gt; But can this tendency be stopped or is it hopeless? It could be helpfu=
l <br>
&gt; to analyse the causes instead of &#39;fighting&#39; against oneselve.<=
br>
<br>
Sounds like fun! I&#39;m a little bit tired from building. I built all<br>
the LF and MF RX stuff including receivers, preamps, many filters,<br>
splitters and so on. I built the U3S, TX converters, TX antenna,<br>
variometers, transformers. I built a few LF and MF PAs before<br>
finding success... and success came after many weeks of tracking<br>
down trouble. Now I&#39;m just finishing up the build of a power supply<br>
for the new LF PA, also doing a lot of work to make new and better<br>
cables to connect all this stuff together. I enjoy building stuff,<br>
but I am ready for a little break. All this has been a bit of a rush<br>
trying to get it all done as quickly as possible. After I finish the<br>
power supply, RX protection, and new RX antenna maybe I can rest and<br>
do some operating... ;-)<br>
<br>
73,<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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