Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-md01.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id CA3D838000083; Sun, 7 Apr 2013 04:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UOl2v-0002M2-2o for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 09:33:53 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UOl2t-0002Lt-UN for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 09:33:51 +0100 Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UOl2q-0003u3-J0 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 09:33:50 +0100 Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id k13so5027772wgh.5 for ; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-DKIM-Result: Domain=gmail.com Result=Good and Known Domain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:message-id:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority:importance :x-mailer:x-mimeole; bh=nBLddq68zujF+2C6hB+pmTZusU9nWXygCpoq7UyCi48=; b=HbR0nBD2M+uS2MFmvoVBcTUXcJlbybrXn4QMPwk0nQ0EtCLmzs88h2TNEFgeVyGAVK QC+geX+hXQAVhMUsDHekvNqJlqgE8sO205XtCOrqWoHWC2brTNCQWZtF3n9JcSO1OL8W BQBRozKqny8tfPTNXJzyR2CbAeHzVigbcFu06Fwt8C0d6fFAr2a2H6fO9JXkCFVkYquy e4cwvor7zvgB+9vmMTmwbD4IBjQ3luCqlwurf/yHkeTNRjBf27K+qf17MqVzgHhB1DuF UL6oqgsils0SNFSoy1Gzlv3ZVxeFGA2Tot+PgzHDxfOKD9iQrPx1oL+xfYS5Bz8AJOv0 nTVA== X-Received: by 10.181.11.164 with SMTP id ej4mr7160413wid.29.1365323606184; Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PcMinto (dhcp-077-248-065-057.chello.nl. [77.248.65.57]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dm9sm12910062wib.3.2013.04.07.01.33.25 (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: Minto Witteveen To: References: <122E7FDB629A419F812E13FCF3EAF6BD@AGB> <1B78A630D31B4549BDCC602762707068@AGB> <993A77CEFEDD48F2823CA7CBA5C07785@PcMinto> <9959A022143F43F7967F546EF3FDAEE6@PcMinto> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:33:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Graham, Yes I have the slider set to (nearly) maximum on 2 and 70 J With a direct compare (same antenna, same signal) the dongle is definitely less sensitive than my 897, I suspect (but have not scientifically determined) at least several s-points. I only tested NFM. Other dongle owners here report the same so it is not an issue with my copy of the dongle… [...] Content analysis details: (0.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.7 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, low trust [74.125.82.50 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (minto.witteveen[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Scan-Signature: d39590a37d2d2f42e2bd231b9871cde0 Subject: LF: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=C2=A310_Dongel-SDR__Direct_sampl?= =?UTF-8?Q?e_on_504_KHz_-_S/N__TEST_?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01CE337B.54BCDAE0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE,MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-md01.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d605551612fc71613 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CE337B.54BCDAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Graham, Yes I have the slider set to (nearly) maximum on 2 and 70 J With a direct compare (same antenna, same signal) the dongle is = definitely less sensitive than my 897, I suspect (but have not = scientifically determined) at least several s-points. I only tested NFM. = Other dongle owners here report the same so it is not an issue with my = copy of the dongle=E2=80=A6 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Graham=20 Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 02:00 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 KHz - S/N = TEST=20 Ok...Minto,=20 - silly question , you have the gain slider set max in the driver = set-up panel ? Then agen , my ft897 could be u/s ! =20 I will shorten the min coax I have soldered to the device , and = see what happens on VHF with the gen on Sunday=20 with the same levels , ive emailed you a recording of ssb = station on 4 meters , using the dongle and indoor Ae=20 73 -G,.=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 11:16 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 KHz - S/N TEST = Hi Graham, So maybe I should order another (type) of RTL2832 dongle. The one I have = certainly is wayyy less sensitive than my ft897 on 2 and 70. Probably = the type of tuner is different. Well for the direct sampling test it is irrelevant. I will have to = filter 472, but that is no problem as I already have such a filter = (ft817 will overload from AM@675 without the filter). I also have a 1.8 MHz higpass. And as you say, at EUR 10 for a dongle = there is not much to complain about. It is fascinating that it works so = well as it does. 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Graham=20 Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 23:58 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 KHz - S/N = TEST=20 Ok Minto=20 Yes this is the Q not Q or what ever connection to the A/d =20 http://mikikg.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/rtl2832u-dc-mods.pdf As to improvement's , ive no idea ! , but you note the coupling = C are both removed , the gain from the mini-whip my well be = enough to 'tip the balance' but s/n for data is more important = than 'peak signal level' so gain (lots) may not be the holy = grail , I did copy nav text at 100% from the south of Uk , audio = level was very low , but at a good s/n. =20 [ Gary's point , yes could switch , but I have the impression , more = could be gained by using the balanced feed as in the link = above , you can run 2 dongles in the same pc as the usb = location seems to be part of the driver addressing=20 There is 'no' gain in the A/D , to day , the racal ra6790 = produced a S3 / 4 cw copy from 0.1 uV , as can be seen from the = s-lab shot , but a low noise pre-amp would solve the problem and = with no additional mixer , IMD should be much reduced , night = time HF was quite reasonable , left it on 14,103 with the 40ft = vertical, returned after dinner and had missed Iceland with -8dB = signal .. typical ! =20 The mixer in the dongle cannot have much dynamic range , = compared to one designed for 'HF , eg the ra1769 first mixer = is fed with 5 to 7 watts of RF to ensure minimal transit times = and over 120 dB dynamic range , this could be a contributing = factor to any 'strange patterns , which must be aggravated by = having two mixers in the rf path - one may be 'good' but the = e4000 may not be , where as the a/d seems to be quite clean=20 You have the same item I have hacked for MF , showing in the = driver list as generic , the other is the original ezeycap as per = the first posts ... When you say the vhf/uhf is 'low' that's = odd as I would say this one (ezy) is as good as the ft897d on = 2/70 and on 4 meters , its better than the spectrum trans V , = using HDSDR =20 But the main thing is , it put's a reasonable set-up in a very = affordable price , will be interesting to see the performance = ,D/S linked to the mini-whip , may be the only way round the = large carrier problem will be filtering , or a move to a = better a/d , at least any pre-amps and filters are transferable = , should a better A/D be used at a future data ? 73 -G.=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:15 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 KHz - S/N TEST = I have been experimenting too with an RTL-SDR dongle now for a few = weeks. I currently use a transverter to listen to lf/mf/hf. This = transverter upshifts the spectrum with 100 MHz. Although the RTL-DSR is rather deaf when used on 2m or 70 cm (compared = to my ham equipment) when used for HF it is sensitive enough with a = pa0rdt active antenna. I can also use it on 472. But there I have to use my 472 KHz narrow band = filter to keep out mf, especially Radio Mario @ 675 Khz. And although = the dynamic range is not stellar, as far as I can determine reception = on 472 is very comparable to my ft817.. Grahams pointer to the direct sampling option got me interested. Time to = let the nice people from dealextreme send me another on for EUR 10 so I = can =E2=80=98experiment=E2=80=99 with it. Some interesting websites/video=E2=80=99s about the direct sampling = implementation: http://ttrftech.tumblr.com/post/36283680013/rtl2832u-dongle-mods-for-7mhz= -reception-with-gqrx and http://mikikg.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/prepravka-dvb-t-usb-prijemnika-sa-= rtl2832u-za-hf-0-28mhz/ First site is in Japanese, second in Croatian, but Google (translate) is = your friend. It is very nice to get an instant overview of 2 MHz of spectrum. I have = been plagued by ever increasing QRM here, which forced me to place a = magnetic loop antenna in my backyard to get any reception at all. QRM = now is S9+10 dB form 100 KHz to nearly 50 MHz. I have not been able to = find out what causes this (not generated in my house). See attached = screenshot for a part of the spectrum around 80 meters. This wavy = pattern can be seen everywhere from nearly DC to 50 MHz, with some clean = area=E2=80=99s in between. Sometimes the QRM stops waving =E2=80=93 = straight lines for several seconds and then the waving restarts. I am very jealous of other hams showing waterfall patters where = everything between real signals is dark blue... :-( Anybody ANY idea what might cause this kind of QRM?=20 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Gary - G4WGT=20 Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 19:55 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 KHz - S/N TEST = Graham, Maybe then....if the PCB was installed in a small aluminium box the = capacitor could be removed & a switch fitted to select the original = (VHF) arrangement or the HF/LF method. Possibly fit a pre-amp also. 73, Gary - G4WGT. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CE337B.54BCDAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Graham,

Yes I have the slider set to (nearly) maximum on 2 and 70 = J
With a direct compare (same antenna, same signal) the = dongle is=20 definitely less sensitive than my 897, I suspect (but have not = scientifically=20 determined) at least several s-points. I only tested NFM. Other dongle = owners=20 here report the same so it is not an issue with my copy of the=20 dongle=E2=80=A6

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
----------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Graham
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 02:00
Subject: Re: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on = 504 KHz - S/N=20 TEST
 
Ok...Minto,
 
- silly  question  , you  have  the  gain = slider=20 set  max in the  driver set-up panel ?  Then agen , = my =20 ft897  could  be  u/s  ! 
 
I will  shorten the  min coax  I  have  = soldered=20 to the  device  , and  see  what  happens  = on=20 VHF  with the  gen on Sunday
with the  same  levels  , ive  emailed  = you =20 a  recording  of  ssb   station  on = 4 =20 meters  , using  the  dongle  and  indoor  = Ae=20
 
73 -G,.
 
 
 
 
 
From: Minto Witteveen
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 11:16 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 = KHz - S/N TEST=20
 

Hi Graham,

So maybe I should order another (type) of RTL2832 dongle. = The one I=20 have certainly is wayyy less sensitive than my ft897 on 2 and 70. = Probably the=20 type of tuner is different.
Well for the direct sampling test it is=20 irrelevant. I will have to filter 472, but that is no problem as I = already have=20 such a filter (ft817 will overload from AM@675 without the filter).
I also have a = 1.8 MHz=20 higpass.  And as you say, at EUR 10 for a dongle there is not much = to=20 complain about. It is fascinating that it works so well as it=20 does.

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
----------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Graham
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 23:58
Subject: Re: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on = 504 KHz - S/N=20 TEST
 
Ok  Minto
 
Yes this  is the  Q not Q or  what  ever =20 connection  to the  A/d 
 
h= ttp://mikikg.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/rtl2832u-dc-mods.pdf
 
As to improvement's  , ive no idea  ! ,   but = you =20 note the   coupling   C  are  both  = removed ,=20 the  gain from the  mini-whip  my  well  = be =20 enough to  'tip the  balance'  but   s/n =20 for  data  is  more  important  than  = 'peak signal=20 level'   so  gain (lots)  may  not be the  = holy  grail , I did  copy  nav text  at 100% from = the =20 south  of  Uk , audio  level  was  very low , = but =20 at a  good s/n. 
 
[ Gary's  point , yes could  switch , but  I have = the =20 impression , more  could  be  gained  by  = using =20 the  balanced  feed  as  in the  link above , = you =20 can  run  2  dongles  in  the  same  = pc =20 as  the  usb  location  seems  to  = be  part=20 of the  driver  addressing
 
There  is  'no'  gain in the  A/D , to  = day =20 , the   racal  ra6790  produced  a  S3 / = 4 =20 cw  copy  from  0.1 uV  , as  can be  seen = from=20 the  s-lab shot , but  a low noise  pre-amp  = would =20 solve the  problem and  with  no   = additional =20 mixer  , IMD should  be   much  reduced  , = night=20 time  HF was  quite  reasonable , left  it =20 on   14,103  with the  40ft  vertical, = returned =20 after  dinner  and   had missed  Iceland =20 with  -8dB  signal .. typical !  
 
The  mixer  in  the  dongle  cannot =20 have  much  dynamic  range  , compared to one =20 designed  for  'HF   , eg  the  = ra1769 =20 first  mixer  is fed  with   5  to 7 = watts =20 of  RF to  ensure minimal  transit  times  = and =20 over  120 dB  dynamic  range ,  this  = could =20 be  a contributing factor  to  any  'strange = patterns =20 , which  must  be  aggravated  by  having  = two  mixers  in the  rf  path  -  one = may =20 be  'good'  but  the  e4000   may  = not =20 be , where  as  the  a/d  seems  to  = be =20 quite  clean
 
You have the  same  item I have  hacked  = for  MF ,=20 showing  in the  driver  list as  generic , = the =20 other  is the  original ezeycap  as per the  = first =20 posts  ... When  you  say  the  vhf/uhf  = is =20 'low'  that's  odd  as  I would  say  = this =20 one  (ezy)  is  as  good  as the  ft897d = on=20 2/70  and on 4  meters  , its  better  than = the =20 spectrum  trans V  , using  HDSDR 
 
But  the  main thing  is , it  put's  a=20 reasonable   set-up   in a very  = affordable  price=20 , will  be  interesting  to  see  the =20 performance  ,D/S linked to the  mini-whip  ,  may = be=20 the  only  way  round the  large  carrier  = problem  will  be   filtering  , or  = a  move=20 to  a better  a/d  , at  least  any =20 pre-amps  and  filters  are  transferable  ,=20 should  a  better   A/D be  used  at  = a =20 future  data  ?
 
73 -G.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: Minto Witteveen
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:15 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: Re: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 = KHz - S/N TEST=20
 

I have been experimenting too with an RTL-SDR dongle now = for a few=20 weeks. I currently use a transverter to listen to lf/mf/hf. This = transverter=20 upshifts the spectrum with 100 MHz.
Although the RTL-DSR is rather = deaf when=20 used on 2m or 70 cm (compared to my ham equipment) when used for HF it = is=20 sensitive enough with a pa0rdt active antenna.
I can also use it on = 472. But=20 there I have to use my 472 KHz narrow band filter to keep out mf, = especially=20 Radio Mario @ 675 Khz. And although the dynamic range is not stellar, as = far as=20 I can determine  reception = on 472 is=20 very comparable to my ft817..
Grahams pointer to the direct sampling = option=20 got me interested. Time to let the nice people from dealextreme send me = another=20 on for EUR 10 so I can =E2=80=98experiment=E2=80=99 with = it.

Some=20 interesting websites/video=E2=80=99s about the direct sampling=20 implementation:
http://ttrftech.tumblr.com/post/36283680013/rtl2832u-dongl= e-mods-for-7mhz-reception-with-gqrx
and
http://mikikg.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/prepravka-dvb-t-usb= -prijemnika-sa-rtl2832u-za-hf-0-28mhz/

First site is in Japanese, second in Croatian, but Google = (translate) is your friend.

It is very nice to get an instant overview of 2 MHz of = spectrum. I=20 have been plagued by ever increasing QRM here, which forced me to place = a=20 magnetic loop antenna in my backyard to get any reception at all. QRM = now is=20 S9+10 dB form 100 KHz to nearly 50 MHz. I have not been able to find out = what=20 causes this (not generated in my house). See attached screenshot for a = part of=20 the spectrum around 80 meters. This =20 wavy pattern can be seen everywhere from nearly DC to 50 MHz, = with some=20 clean area=E2=80=99s in between. Sometimes the QRM stops waving = =E2=80=93 straight lines for=20 several seconds and then the waving = restarts.

I am very jealous of other hams showing waterfall patters = where=20 everything between real signals is dark blue... :-(

Anybody ANY idea what might cause this kind of QRM?=20

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
----------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 19:55
Subject: Re: LF: =C2=A310 Dongel-SDR Direct sample on 504 = KHz - S/N TEST=20
 
Graham,
 
Maybe then....if the PCB was installed = in a small=20 aluminium box the capacitor could be removed & a switch fitted to = select the=20 original (VHF) arrangement or the HF/LF method. Possibly fit a pre-amp=20 also.
 
73, Gary - G4WGT.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CE337B.54BCDAE0--