Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dk04.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E53CB38000083; Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1TBwYn-0001cN-NY for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:41:33 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1TBwYm-0001cE-UB for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:41:32 +0100 Received: from smtpout5.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.80] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1TBwYk-0005GU-85 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:41:31 +0100 Received: from AGB ([2.26.22.87]) by mwinf5d64 with ME id yPhU1j00A1skBk203PhVTr; Thu, 13 Sep 2012 01:41:29 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <66C690FA65054015B54D3DC3A6699556@AGB> <8CF5F1C3F556E0D-1A4C-500CE@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8CF5F1C3F556E0D-1A4C-500CE@webmail-d006.sysops.aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:41:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: ''Apparently Opera is functioning as a beaconing system, and nothing else. You basically transmit one information ("I'm there"), and you get a reply by the internet ("I see you"). Am I missing something here? [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.80 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 5888f019f789bb7da964f45b5f85ee04 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01B1_01CD9148.83081430" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1db40850511def15a5 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B1_01CD9148.83081430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ''Apparently Opera is functioning as a beaconing system, and nothing = else. You basically transmit one information ("I'm there"), and you get = a reply by the internet ("I see you"). Am I missing something here?=20 Sooner or later, someone here will surely ask that question: On the = other hand, if you are aiming for two way communication, and there is no = SNR advantage, then why would you want to replace the Morse key in the = first place'' There was (is) a working QSO version with 15 chrs at -20 dB = s/n and a lower s/n one briefly that was used on 136 ... = however as in all theatrical productions , artistic control is = under the director and we have one of the more radical ones on = this project ..never a dull moment , but technically so far we are = playing to a full house :- ) Well at least Blagging and Bragging is keeping the list = running during the 32 min tx cycles ...=20 but on the bright side OP's and OAP's are asking questions , = which compared to the other news groups , seems to reflect a = higher level of technical interest down here ,=20 Joes reply to Stefan was correct .. but .. with more tones ..fsk = can be better and have no transmission overhead's=20 pbsk batter than 4fsk=20 8fsk the same as pbsk=20 16fsk then better than pbsk=20 G..=20 From: Markus Vester=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:39 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Cc: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups.co.uk=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR? Hi Graham, LF, wow such a flood of incoming mails... > Well yes Joe (K) is right, BPSK is better, but needs a linear system = to transmit .... Joe (EA) has stated, he could extract another 6 dB if = the modulation system was changed ...... BPSK vs. ASK? Unfiltered PSK _can_ be sent by a nonlinear transmitter, = it's only very unfriendly to others due to the spectral sidebands from = the sharp transitions. But so is unshaped ASK!=20 In simple words, ASK steps from 1 to 0 wheras BPSK transitions go from = +1 to -1. So with BPSK you get twice the sensitivity, along with twice = the keyclicks. If you compare ASK at a given peak power to BPSK sent at = -6 dB, you end up at same sensitivity and same clicks. Only average = power for PSK would be half (25% instead of 50%). Phase-continuous FSK as used in WSPR is much more gentle in that = respect. There are no steps in the waveform, thus the click spectrum = falls off much more rapidly. > WLOF is already coded and makes use of multi pass to gain s/n, but is = psk and needs a liner system ...and is not a one-pass decode system , = when the s/n is low .but at -41 dB, by what ever scale, OP32 is well = into the noise in single pass The advantage of such a "multipass" system is that it can be adaptive to = SNR, ie. a strong signal decodes fast, and only for a weak one you have = to wait longer. > We didn't set out to produce a low level beacon mode, it was supposed = to be a replacement for the CW key ..=20 Apparently Opera is functioning as a beaconing system, and nothing else. = You basically transmit one information ("I'm there"), and you get a = reply by the internet ("I see you"). Am I missing something here?=20 Sooner or later, someone here will surely ask that question: On the = other hand, if you are aiming for two way communication, and there is no = SNR advantage, then why would you want to replace the Morse key in the = first place?=20 > The Op structure allows for up to 50% loss of signal randomly along = the time line, ie first 50%, last 50% or randomly distributed=20 Yes with Opera's distributed and redundant coding you can chop off half = of the signal time. WSPR can do the very same stunt. Both will need more = SNR during the remaining half, at least 3 dB, probably a bit more. Even = DFCW could do it if you had sent two repetitions at double speed ;-)=20 > and over a real path , the Op system is able to make use of deep = variations in fading and is immure to phase and Doppler distortion. Yes of course, on the air there are other factors than "AWGN" white = noise. Spherics and impulsive QRM have to be dealt by appropriate = (preferably wide-band) noise blanking strategies. Fading and Doppler = (which is only milliHz on LF) may have to be dealt with. But it remains = to be proven that under these conditions Op is so much superior that it = can make up for the 6 dB shortfall under lab conditions. =20 > But, 'the eating of the pudding is in the proof of the making'? = Stefan, last night reaching ua0aet over land, with 7 dB left in the = system, taking some big bites out of the distance records on 136 Yes, a very nice result! I can state without envy that Stefan has a good = signal, and it is going further than others. But does that really make a = point for Opera, versus any other mode?=20 Graham, I'm in no way against Opera mode per se. But I have to say that = I dislike the bragging.=20 > The best thing about the Op system is 'The number of reason's it = cannot work' :) Hey, that's what all those perpetuum mobile inventors keep claiming ;-) Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR?=20 Von: Graham =20 Datum: Mi, 12 Sept 2012 12:24 pm=20 Re: LF: Fwd: Re: Ideas for a slower WSPR for the 137 khz band Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:08 PM Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR?=20 Datum: Mi, 12 Sept 2012 4:16 pm=20 Re: LF: Fw: LOST TRACK=20 Datum: Mi, 12 Sept 2012 5:18 pm=20 ... -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Graham An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mi, 12 Sept 2012 4:16 pm Betreff: Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR? Well its mostly a silly argument as the systems are totally = different =20 , in terms of data processing and the operation of the decoder and = the =20 technical level of the equipment needed to tx/rx the mode=20 =20 We didn't set out to produce a low level beacon mode , it was = supposed =20 to be a replacement for the CW key .. the longer times where as a = result of studying the various EU/VK qrsss plots and reasoning = that =20 over 50% of the 32 min cycle could be above the decode level ... = the =20 rest (will be) history :)=20 =20 DSP and associated 'Numeric Processing' facts and fictions are = very =20 difficult to separate , not helped by the ongoing pie fight out to = 'our' west , however... so far so good !=20 =20 The best thing about the Op system is 'The number of reason's it = cannot work' :)=20 =20 G..=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_01B1_01CD9148.83081430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
''Apparently Opera is functioning as a beaconing system, and = nothing else.=20 You basically transmit one information ("I'm there"), and you get a = reply by the=20 internet ("I see you"). Am I missing something here?
 
Sooner or later, someone here will surely ask that question: On the = other=20 hand, if you are aiming for two way communication, and there is no SNR=20 advantage, then why would you want to replace the Morse key in the first = place''
 
 There  was  (is) a  working  QSO =20 version  with  15  chrs  at   -20 dB  = s/n   and a  lower  s/n  one  = briefly =20 that  was used  on 136 ...  however  as  in=20 all   theatrical   productions  , = artistic =20 control  is under the director  and  we  have = one of=20 the  more  radical  ones  on  this project=20 ..never  a  dull  moment , but  technically  so = far we=20 are playing  to  a  full  house  :- )
 
Well  at least   Blagging  and =20 Bragging   is  keeping  the  list = running  =20 during  the  32  min  tx  cycles ...
 
but  on the  bright  side   = OP's  =20 and  OAP's  are  asking  questions , = which =20 compared to the  other  news  groups  , seems  = to =20 reflect a higher  level  of technical interest down here , =
 
Joes reply to  Stefan was correct  .. but  .. = with =20 more  tones ..fsk  can be  better and  have  = no =20 transmission  overhead's
 
pbsk   batter  than  4fsk
8fsk   the  same  as  pbsk
16fsk   then better  than pbsk
 
 
G..
 
 
 

From: Markus Vester
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:39 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Cc: rsgb_lf_group@yahoogroups= .co.uk=20
Subject: Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow=20 WSPR?

Hi = Graham,=20 LF,
 
wow such a flood of incoming mails...
 
> Well yes Joe (K) is right, BPSK is better, but needs a linear = system=20 to transmit .... Joe (EA) has stated, he could extract another 6 dB if = the=20 modulation system was changed ......
 
BPSK vs. ASK? Unfiltered PSK _can_ be sent by a nonlinear = transmitter, it's=20 only very unfriendly to others due to the spectral sidebands from the = sharp=20 transitions. But so is unshaped ASK!
 
In simple words, ASK steps from 1 to 0 wheras BPSK transitions go = from +1=20 to -1. So with BPSK you get twice the sensitivity, along with twice the=20 keyclicks. If you compare ASK at a given peak power to BPSK sent at -6 = dB, you=20 end up at same sensitivity and same clicks. Only average power for PSK = would be=20 half (25% instead of 50%).
 
Phase-continuous FSK as used in WSPR is much more gentle in that = respect.=20 There are no steps in the waveform, thus the click spectrum falls off = much more=20 rapidly.
 
> WLOF is already coded and makes use of multi pass to gain s/n, = but is=20 psk and needs a liner system ...and is not a one-pass decode system , = when the=20 s/n is low .but at -41 dB, by what ever scale, OP32 is well into the = noise in=20 single pass
 
The advantage of such a "multipass" system is that it can be = adaptive to=20 SNR, ie. a strong signal decodes fast, and only for a weak one you have = to wait=20 longer.
 
> We didn't set out to produce a low level beacon mode, it was = supposed=20 to be a replacement for the CW key ..
 
Apparently Opera is functioning as a beaconing system, and nothing = else.=20 You basically transmit one information ("I'm there"), and you get a = reply by the=20 internet ("I see you"). Am I missing something here?
 
Sooner or later, someone here will surely ask that question: On the = other=20 hand, if you are aiming for two way communication, and there is no SNR=20 advantage, then why would you want to replace the Morse key in the first = place?=20
> The Op structure allows for up to 50% loss of signal randomly = along=20 the time line, ie first 50%, last 50% or randomly distributed
 
Yes with Opera's distributed and redundant coding you can chop off = half of=20 the signal time. WSPR can do the very same stunt. Both will need more = SNR during=20 the remaining half, at least 3 dB, probably a bit more. Even DFCW could = do it if=20 you had sent two repetitions at double speed ;-)
 
> and over a real path , the Op system is able to make use of = deep=20 variations in fading and is immure to phase and Doppler = distortion.
 
Yes of course, on the air there are other factors than "AWGN" white = noise.=20 Spherics and impulsive QRM have to be dealt by appropriate (preferably=20 wide-band) noise blanking strategies. Fading and Doppler (which is only = milliHz=20 on LF) may have to be dealt with. But it remains to be proven that under = these=20 conditions Op is so much superior that it can make up for the 6 dB = shortfall=20 under lab conditions. 
 
> But, 'the eating of the pudding is in the proof of the = making'?=20 Stefan, last night reaching ua0aet over land, with 7 dB left in the = system,=20 taking some big bites out of the distance records on 136
 
Yes, a very nice result! I can state without envy that Stefan has a = good=20 signal, and it is going further than others. But does that really make a = point=20 for Opera, versus any other mode?
 
Graham, I'm in no way against Opera mode per se. But I have to say = that I=20 dislike the bragging.
 
> The best thing about the Op system is 'The number of reason's = it=20 cannot work' :)
 
Hey, that's what all those perpetuum mobile inventors keep claiming = ;-)

Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

 
Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR? =
Von:=20 Graham <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk> =
Datum:=20 Mi, 12 Sept 2012 12:24 pm
 
Re: LF: Fwd: Re: Ideas for a slower WSPR for the 137 khz = band
Sent:=20 Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:08 PM
 
Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR?
Datum: Mi, 12 = Sept 2012=20 4:16 pm
 
Re: LF: Fw: LOST TRACK
Datum: Mi, 12 Sept 2012 5:18 pm=20
...
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Graham = <g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk>
An: rsgb_lf_group=20 <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mi, 12 Sept 2012 = 4:16=20 pm
Betreff: Re: LF: RE: [rsgb_lf_group] Re: LF: slow WSPR?

Well  its mostly a silly  argument  as  the =
 systems  are totally  different  

, in terms of  data  processing  and the  operation of the  decoder  and =
the  

technical  level  of the  equipment needed to tx/rx  the mode 

 

We didn't  set out to produce a  low level  beacon  mode , it was =
supposed  

to  be a replacement  for the  CW key ..  the longer times  where as  a  =


result of studying the  various    EU/VK  qrsss  plots  and  reasoning =
that  

over 50% of the  32  min cycle could  be  above the  decode level ... =
the  

rest  (will be) history :) 

 

DSP and  associated  'Numeric Processing'   facts and  fictions  are  =
very  

difficult to separate  , not  helped by the  ongoing  pie fight  out to  =


'our'  west , however... so far  so good ! 

 

The  best  thing  about the  Op system is  'The  number of reason's  it  =


cannot  work'  :) 

 

G..

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