Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1233; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id tADIq9UA030300 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:52:09 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZxJOf-0008JW-LZ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:48:29 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZxJOf-0008JN-0Q for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:48:29 +0000 Received: from smtpout1.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.29] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZxJNd-0001zE-L7 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:48:27 +0000 Received: from AGB ([95.148.100.66]) by mwinf5d02 with ME id h6n71r00u1RwtHK036n8h1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:47:10 +0100 X-ME-Helo: AGB X-ME-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:47:10 +0100 X-ME-IP: 95.148.100.66 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <579355A36AEE9D4FA555C45D556003AB1B286613@servigilant.vigilant.local> <0ADAA2ADD4844DA1B2EC8471B7B28629@AGB> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:47:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Scan-Signature: d8e1b950f7fe6351773df30c5c5e7f58 Subject: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0089_01D11E43.B2961F40" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5029 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01D11E43.B2961F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quite so Mal, Opera was designed to have a minimal of hardware requirements , = the Dynamic addition , uses the user pool to provide a go no-go = check , Time is used as the measure not the instigator Two stations , same call , same time stamp , extracted from a = random environment=20 18:05 477 G0NBD de SO5AS Op8 Deep Search 994 mi -35 dB in Komorow 1495.6 = Hz with 12.5w + 40ft top load inv L 18:05 477 G0NBD de EA6ZL Op8 Deep Search 1022 mi -36 dB in IBIZA 1499,5 = Hz with 12.5w + 40ft top load inv L data decode 60 seconds previously , =20 18:04 477 G0NBD de G4WGT Op8 21 mi +4 dB F:3% in Chorley, IO83qo, 1532.7 = Hz with 12.5w + 40ft top load inv L There is a single validated UK>VK spot and a single KV>SV = validated dynamic spot :,) we know the Uk spot was 7 seconds = from the UK spot time , some co-incidence eh : ) 73-G, Good condx to night as well ..=20 100 watts to the 40 x 60 ft top load inv L=20 SM2DJK 600m OPERA 1750 km 18:21:30=20 EA6ZL 600m OPERA 1645 km 18:12:20=20 SO5AS 600m OPERA 1601 km 18:28:37=20 DF2JP 600m OPERA 696 km 18:20:25=20 G8HUH 600m OPERA 240 km 18:20:25=20 G4MSN 600m OPERA 109 km 18:20:24=20 G4WGT 600m OPERA 33 km 18:20:25=20 G0NBD 600m OPERA 0 km 18:12:10=20 From: mal hamilton=20 Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:19 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Graham es Co I like to see a constructive discussion about different data modes ie = any advantage one mode has vs the other. While both Opera and Wspr have merit in their own unique ways there is a = problem with Wspr if the clock accuracy varies then no decodes are = possible. I have experienced this myself on reception. Opera seems very = user friendly and straight forward to implement and operate. Key the TX = directly no transverter or ssb transmitter or time accuracy required and = bingo you are in business. gl to all de mal/g3kev From: Graham=20 Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 5:59 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Unfortunately the Op8 decodes from Reunion would be under Deep Search Hi Luis HA HA =20 Well , we know wspr and opera dynamic uses the same correlation = technology , that's the reason for the text look up table in each = mode ... AAA+ qualified without doubts ;-) quite !! However , Opera uses the internet in more elegant way , not just = clock setting, to dynamically validate the spot , and as you know , = Opera is not a time division multiplex system, so false dynamic = spots have nice random time stamps ..unlike wspr , that is time = locked , so the real and the imaginary are very difficult to = tell apart .=20 The work needed to separate the dynamic from the op8 to the = psk-map would be extensive, due to the multi path reporting = system , the simple work around was to split the feeds . Operas = is a complete system , Tx and Rx , with intelligent internet = deployment. the psk-map is only a indicator and not the output = device , that's the opera application=20 wspr 15 was also a failure , you cannot just scale up a mode and = expect it to work and has unrealistic hardware requirements, = notably , also uses the same text support table.=20 No need to improve over the 60 watt's , would be enough to reach = EU , G8HUH used 100 watts carrier power, even -3 dB would be 50 , = the Opera decoder is not desensitised by strong in band signals = , and in there lies wspr's problem , it was never designed to = accommodate strong in band signals as found on MF/LF.=20 But .. for some, reality is only a secondary consideration. like = opera is only 50% efficient , apparently when the TX off , then = it's wasting power on the off cycle ,transmission depends on the = available energy , if its off half of the time , then it has only = used Half the energy ...=20 73-G,=20 From: VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez=20 Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 9:53 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RE: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hi Mal, Graham Unfortunately the Op8 decodes from Reunion would be under Deep Search And you know. Not considered "real" decodes by the purists and so, = garbaje qualifyed Not showed on PskReporter map, either WSPR-15 may be another option, but stressing a PA for 15 minutes is not = easy without nice matching and not sure if that is possible there. A WSPR-15 decode should be AAA+ = qualified without doubts ;-) QSB on MF may be also an issue, for a 15 min WSPR TX, as previously = discussed in this reflector Anyway worth a try. I'm sure FR5ZX is trying to improve his Tx on MF and = there are better conditions to come on this band, ins't it ?. We have to be patient ..... 73 de Luis EA5DOM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de mal hamilton Enviado el: viernes, 13 de noviembre de 2015 10:17 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Graham=20 Tnx info=20 If you could contact him and ask him to divert to Opera reporting = sometimes it would be interesting since quite a number of MF OPERATORS = are active at present. It would be a worthwhile exercise and QRSS would = also be worth trying for a real time QSO DE MAL/G3KEV From: Graham=20 Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:29 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Not yet, as far as we know Mal, Tom, G8HUH asked in the yahoo group after his wspr spot , by the = report Tom achieved, FR5 , would of made it back to Uk with his = 60 watts in OP8 directly=20 73-G, From: Mal Hamilton=20 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:51 PM To: mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Does FR5ZX. Monitor opera on 477 KHz A lot of acty tonite De mal/g3kev Sent from my iPhone On 12 Nov 2015, at 14:30, "mal hamilton" wrote: It would be interesting to compare OPERA against WSPR at that distance = to FR5ZX=20 also it would appear that a QRSS QSO would be possible on MF 73 de Mal.G3KEV From: VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:11 AM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hi MF Interesting conditions to Reunion last night A total of 23 spots from FR5ZX. Only four stations reported 1 from G8HUH at -30 3 from SV8CS best -24 6 from DK7FC best -24 13 from EA5DOM best -19 From Rick Strobbe ON7YD reference site for LF antennas I have seen his = calculations for a vertical antenna with inductive topload. May be is the closer configuration to = what I have managed to get here http://www.strobbe.eu/on7yd/136ant/#IndTop There is no mention to the feeding point for such antenna. In my setup = H(L) is 80m and I'm feeding at the coil base. Total H is 80+11=3D 91m The Ra calculated from Rick formulas is over 8 Ohm (not mOhm) This radiation resistance seems too much to be true. But results are = proving really outstanding I'm just feeding the antenna with 70W, believe it or not and it is not = really resonanting on WPSR frequency but on 488KHz as I adjust the variometer up at the antenna and then run a coax line = to shack which changes it all The 80m pipe which forms the H(L) is really more complex in practice. = It goes down to building basement and there splits into different pipes. One connects to presure = compressor and water tank. The other runs underground 40m to the twin tower and then runs up again another 80m = into the twin (parallel) tower The pipe section running underground is not metal, but plastic. The = iner water column should work as current conductor. That water is confined in the pipes and presurized. = Should be saturated with metal oxide similar to a heating circuit, so probably the plastic pipe got metal = deposits inside which make it even better conductor than the water colum itself Any thoughts ?? Am I getting >10% efficiency ?? 73 de Luis EA5DOM=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de VIGILANT Luis = Fern=E1ndez Enviado el: lunes, 09 de noviembre de 2015 16:01 Para: DK7FC; rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Asunto: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR From WSPR database, FR5ZX transmitted in 503KHz. Is 630m band not = allowed in Reuni=F3n?=20 73 de Luis EA5DOM Enviado en portable ------ Mensaje original ------ Desde: DK7FC Fecha: 09/11/2015 14:48 Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Asunto:Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR Hi Genosse Roman, FR5ZX is using a resonated vertical antenna with capacitive top load = near his house. He also transmits with this antenna. 73, Stefan Am 09.11.2015 01:35, schrieb Roman RW3ADB:=20 Parteigenosse Stefan!=20 Any news about FR5ZX RX-setup? ) 73! Roman ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01D11E43.B2961F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quite so Mal,
 
Opera  was designed to  have a   minimal  = of =20 hardware  requirements ,  the  Dynamic  addition ,=20 uses  the  user pool  to  provide a  = go  =20 no-go  check , Time is  used  as the  measure  = not=20 the  instigator
 
Two  stations ,  same  call , same  time  = stamp ,=20 extracted  from a  random environment

18:05 477 G0NBD de SO5AS Op8 Deep Search 994 mi -35 dB in Komorow = 1495.6 Hz=20 with 12.5w + 40ft top load inv L

18:05 477 G0NBD de EA6ZL Op8 Deep Search 1022 mi -36 dB in IBIZA = 1499,5 Hz=20 with 12.5w + 40ft top load inv L

 data  decode 60 seconds  previously , 

18:04 477 G0NBD de G4WGT Op8 21 mi +4 dB F:3% in Chorley, IO83qo, = 1532.7 Hz=20 with 12.5w + 40ft top load inv L

There is  a single  validated  UK>VK spot =20 and   a single  KV>SV  validated  = dynamic =20 spot  :,)    we know the  Uk spot  = was =20 7  seconds  from the  UK  spot  time ,  = some =20 co-incidence eh : )
 
73-G,
 
Good  condx  to  night  as  well ..
 
100 watts  to the   40 x 60  ft  top  = load=20 inv L
 
SM2DJK 600m OPERA 1750 km 18:21:30 EA6ZL 600m OPERA 1645 km 18:12:20 SO5AS 600m OPERA 1601 km 18:28:37 DF2JP 600m OPERA 696 km 18:20:25 G8HUH 600m OPERA 240 km 18:20:25 G4MSN 600m OPERA 109 km 18:20:24 G4WGT 600m OPERA 33 km 18:20:25 G0NBD 600m OPERA 0 km 18:12:10
 
 

Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:19 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Graham es Co
I like to see a constructive discussion about different data modes = ie any=20 advantage one mode has vs the other.
While both Opera and Wspr have merit in their own unique ways there = is=20 a  problem with Wspr if the clock accuracy varies then no decodes = are=20 possible. I have experienced this myself on reception. Opera seems very = user=20 friendly and straight forward to implement and operate. Key the TX = directly no=20 transverter or ssb transmitter or time accuracy required and bingo you = are in=20 business.
 
gl to all
de mal/g3kev
 
 
 
 
From: Graham
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR
 
Unfortunately the Op8 decodes from Reunion would = be under Deep=20 Search
 
Hi Luis HA HA  
 
Well , we know  wspr and  opera dynamic uses  = the =20 same  correlation  technology , that's the  reason for = the =20 text  look  up  table in each mode ...  AAA+ qualified without doubts ;-)  quite !!
 
However ,  Opera  uses  the  internet in = more =20 elegant  way , not  just clock  setting, to =20 dynamically  validate the  spot , and as you  know = , =20 Opera  is not  a  time division  multiplex  = system,=20 so  false  dynamic  spots  have  nice =20 random  time  stamps  ..unlike  wspr , that  is = time  locked  , so  the  real and the  = imaginary =20 are  very  difficult  to  tell  apart .
 
The  work needed  to  separate the  = dynamic  from=20 the  op8 to the  psk-map  would be  extensive, due = to =20 the  multi  path  reporting  system  , = the =20 simple  work around  was to  split the  feeds = .  Operas=20 is a  complete  system , Tx and Rx , with = intelligent  =20 internet deployment. the  psk-map is only a  indicator  = and=20 not  the  output device , that's the  opera  = application=20
 
wspr 15  was also a  failure , you  cannot  = just =20 scale  up a  mode and  expect  it to  work = and =20 has  unrealistic  hardware requirements,  notably ,  = also  uses the  same  text  support table.
 
No need  to  improve  over the 60 watt's ,  = would =20 be  enough  to  reach EU , G8HUH  used  = 100 =20 watts  carrier power,  even -3 dB  would be  50 , = the =20 Opera  decoder is  not  desensitised  by  = strong =20 in band  signals , and in there lies  wspr's  problem , = it=20 was  never  designed to  accommodate  strong  = in=20 band  signals as  found  on  MF/LF.
 
But .. for   some, reality is  only a  = secondary=20 consideration.  like  opera  is  only  50% = efficient=20 ,  apparently when the  TX   off ,  then =20 it's   wasting  power on the  off  cycle=20 ,transmission  depends on the  available  energy , if = its =20 off half  of the  time ,  then it  has only = used  Half=20 the  energy ...
 
73-G,
 
 
 
 

From: VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 9:53 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Subject: LF: RE: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR
 
Hi Mal, Graham
 
Unfortunately the Op8 decodes from Reunion would = be under Deep=20 Search
 
And you know. Not considered "real" decodes by the = purists and=20 so, garbaje qualifyed
Not showed on PskReporter map, = either
 
WSPR-15 may be another option, but stressing a PA = for 15=20 minutes is not easy without nice matching
and not sure if that is possible there. A WSPR-15 = decode=20 should be AAA+ qualified without doubts ;-)
QSB on MF may be also an issue, for a 15 min WSPR = TX, as=20 previously discussed in this reflector
 
Anyway worth a try. I'm sure FR5ZX is trying to = improve his Tx=20 on MF and there are better conditions
to come on this band, ins't it ?. We have to be = patient=20 .....
 
73 de Luis
EA5DOM
 
De: = owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] En nombre de mal=20 hamilton
Enviado el: viernes, 13 de noviembre de 2015=20 10:17
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Asunto: LF: = Re:=20 FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Graham
Tnx info
If you could contact him and ask him to divert to  Opera = reporting=20 sometimes it would be interesting since quite a number of MF OPERATORS = are=20 active at present. It would be a worthwhile exercise and QRSS would also = be=20 worth trying for a real time QSO
 
DE MAL/G3KEV
 
 
From: Graham
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR
 
Not  yet, as far as we know Mal,
 
Tom, G8HUH  asked  in the  yahoo  group = after =20 his  wspr  spot ,  by the  report  Tom = achieved, =20 FR5 , would  of made it back   to  Uk with his  = 60=20 watts in OP8 directly
 
73-G,
 
From: Mal Hamilton
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR
 
Does FR5ZX. Monitor opera on 477 KHz
A lot of acty tonite
De mal/g3kev


Sent from my iPhone

On 12 Nov 2015, at 14:30, "mal hamilton" <g3kevmal@talktalk.net>=20 wrote:

It would be interesting to compare OPERA against WSPR at that = distance to=20 FR5ZX
also it would appear that a QRSS QSO would be possible on = MF
 
73 de Mal.G3KEV
 
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR
 
Hi MF
 
Interesting conditions to Reunion last=20 night
 
A total of 23 spots from FR5ZX. Only four = stations=20 reported
 
1 from G8HUH at -30
3 from SV8CS best -24
6 from DK7FC best -24
13 from EA5DOM best -19
 
From Rick Strobbe ON7YD reference site for = LF=20 antennas I have seen his calculations for a = vertical
antenna with inductive topload. May be is = the closer=20 configuration to what I have managed to get here
 
http://www.strobbe.eu= /on7yd/136ant/#IndTop
 
There is no mention to the feeding point = for such=20 antenna. In my setup H(L) is 80m and I'm feeding
at the coil base. Total H is 80+11=3D=20 91m
 
The Ra calculated from Rick formulas is = over 8 Ohm=20 (not mOhm)
This radiation resistance seems too much to = be true.=20 But results are proving really outstanding
 
I'm just feeding the antenna with 70W, = believe it or=20 not and it is not really resonanting on WPSR frequency but on=20 488KHz
as I adjust the variometer up at the = antenna and then=20 run a coax line to shack which changes it all
 
The 80m pipe which forms the H(L) is really = more=20 complex in practice. It goes down to building = basement
and there splits into different pipes. One = connects=20 to presure compressor and water tank. The other = runs
underground 40m to the twin tower and then = runs up=20 again another 80m into the twin (parallel) tower
The pipe section running underground is not = metal,=20 but plastic. The iner water column should work as
current conductor. That water is confined = in the=20 pipes and presurized. Should be saturated with metal = oxide
similar to a heating circuit, so probably = the plastic=20 pipe got metal deposits inside which make it even = better
conductor than the water colum=20 itself
 
Any thoughts ?? Am I getting >10% = efficiency=20 ??
 
73 de = Luis
EA5DOM 
 
De: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_g= roup@blacksheep.org]=20 En nombre de VIGILANT Luis Fern=E1ndez
Enviado el: = lunes, 09 de=20 noviembre de 2015 16:01
Para: DK7FC; rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
Asunto:=20 Re: LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

From WSPR database, = FR5ZX=20 transmitted in 503KHz. Is 630m band not allowed in Reuni=F3n?

 

73 de Luis

EA5DOM

 

Enviado en=20 portable

------ Mensaje original ------
Desde: = DK7FC
Fecha: 09/11/2015=20 14:48
Para: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= ;
Asunto:Re:=20 LF: Re: FR5ZX on MF WSPR

Hi Genosse Roman,

FR5ZX is = using a=20 resonated vertical antenna with capacitive top load near his house. He = also=20 transmits with this antenna.

73, Stefan

Am 09.11.2015 = 01:35,=20 schrieb Roman RW3ADB:=20
Parteigenosse = Stefan!=20

Any = news about=20 FR5ZX RX-setup? )


 
73!
Roman
=
 
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