Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dd06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dd06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.146]) by air-dc07.mail.aol.com (v129.10) with ESMTP id MAILINDC073-86534db8808b2e9; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:46:03 -0400 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dd06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id A5DF1380002A7; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1QFBbm-00006K-8g for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:45:14 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1QFBbl-00006B-Hd for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:45:13 +0100 Received: from mail-iw0-f171.google.com ([209.85.214.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1QFBbh-0006hq-PX for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:45:13 +0100 Received: by iwn8 with SMTP id 8so2638798iwn.16 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:45:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Iuj2dpF9B0ZHBF54zRtaxrqKFyAoto7KNQv1Cwkx74c=; b=NK5pbPIwuWwl8q6TeBpFDzNFgl3OS8CYx2DKSTRSOOuefREmjNPiZ/vUGykMutzMTp 76vwwh75c7h1+gsAsRO1S0rb/PhyaQjYI1XXRBYyLY1DfrnotwRRv0fAQdAYiXzwe5s2 PtgMnD7gf+Iu23xbvLeZ2WforPHIXWrfUK8ok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=cmi2MSOZdWKSCQIjHJoWwsB6/k5rlFpGSOkiJ3Zna4Bs2QZwQE/zsX8oMt+mbJw3oV jQBpG79c8dyD4J91j7sUymoaLi+HQyVjTe+JD18EIhULzClBQ+0VSBlaX0mB0ZYk9NR1 /BYtc3k38PKtgQ9YSwK39IXHZ2ock9KITYFiU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.197.200 with SMTP id el8mr3513309icb.314.1303937103093; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.221.133 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:45:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4DB873DB.500@talktalk.net> References: <4DB8535B.7040903@talktalk.net> <4DB873DB.500@talktalk.net> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:45:03 +0100 Message-ID: From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: More 8.97kHz WSPR decodes - changed PC here Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303dd95ad6e08504a1ec83fb X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m012.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40924db8808867fa X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --20cf303dd95ad6e08504a1ec83fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Eddie (et al) In the context of the *very very* weak signals experienced at VLF I don't think WSPR is a serious contender except for localised tests. No doubt someone here far more knowledgeable than me can tell us the "dB advantage" of say, QRSS600 or 6000 versus WSPR, but the difference must be enormous. Where WSPR scores, in my view, is the automatic reporting via the internet database. This has proved a real boon at 137 and 500kHz. Even here though very slow QRSS would beat WSPR every time. I am a great believer in WSPR, but do not believe it will be that much use at VLF. Andy (G4JNT) are you able to comment on please? 73s Roger G3XBM On 27 April 2011 20:51, qrss wrote: > Just a further thought. WSPR doesn't of course spread its power over 6Hz > it actually transmits full carrier on each of the four frequencies for 0.682 > mS and sometimes several of the same element follow without a break in > carrier, which accounts for some of the bright spots and lines we see when > things are marginal. One element is a longer dot time than 2WPM Morse, and > that is SLOW Morse. > Long integration times are out of course. > > 73 Eddie G3ZJO > > > On 27/04/2011 18:58, Roger Lapthorn wrote: > > Hi Eddie (et al) > > It is highly unlikely you'd copy Andrew on VLF remembering that the WSPR > signal spreads around 6Hz in the transmission burst, so the energy in any > narrow FFT bin would be tiny. Also, this is earth mode (I hope, as G6ALB > does not hold an NoV to radiate at VLF), so signals are propagating through > the ground by conduction and no significant amount of signal is radiated. > > I'm still intrigued why the best reception here today was with my 80sq m > vertical loop. This outperformed several earth electrode set-ups here at the > RX end, an E-field probe and a 30t loop laying close to copper pipe work in > the house! If the signals are coming down the pipes then why don't these > more direct means of coupling to them work as well as (or better than) a > vertical loop outside? Odd. > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > > > On 27 April 2011 18:33, qrss wrote: > >> Great stuff Roger and Andrew >> >> If you are RX'ing on an 80m dipole it may be worth a look here, I would >> never say can't until I have tried. Bearing in mind I should be able to >> observe signals which would not be decode able on WSPR >> >> I would appreciate a prior notification of times and exact frequency of >> the WSPR signal of any further tests. >> >> Keep it up. >> >> 73 Eddie G3ZJO >> >> >> On 27/04/2011 15:19, Roger Lapthorn wrote: >> >>> As an experiment I changed over to my wife's laptop and got immediate >>> decodes of G6ALB's VLF earth mode signal (3km) at -17dB S/N, suggesting the >>> issue with lack of decodes may be with my soundcard and not Andrew's. >>> >>> 1408 -17 -0.6 0.008986 0 G6ALB JO02 47 >>> 1410 -17 -0.6 0.008986 0 G6ALB JO02 47 >>> 1412 -17 -1.2 0.008986 0 G6ALB JO02 47 >>> 1414 -17 -0.8 0.008986 0 G6ALB JO02 47 >>> 1416 -17 -0.8 0.008986 0 G6ALB JO02 47 >>> >>> This is a very solid signal on the 80m square single turn vertical wire >>> loop antenna. Andrew is using 44W to an earth electrode antenna. >>> >>> 73s >>> Roger G3XBM >>> >>> -- >>> http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.g3xbm.co.uk >>> http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm >>> https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm > https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ > > > -- http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/ --20cf303dd95ad6e08504a1ec83fb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Eddie (et al)

In the context of the very very weak sign= als experienced at VLF I don't think WSPR is a serious contender excep= t for localised tests. No doubt someone here far more knowledgeable than= me can tell us the "dB advantage" of say, QRSS600 or 6000 versu= s WSPR, but the difference must be enormous.

Where WSPR scores, in my view, is the automatic reporting via the inte= rnet database. This has proved a real boon at 137 and 500kHz. Even here th= ough very slow QRSS would beat WSPR every time.=A0 I am a great believer= in WSPR, but do not believe it will be that much use at VLF.

Andy (G4JNT) are you able to comment on please?

73s
Roger G3= XBM




On 27 April 2011 20:51,= qrss <qrss@talk= talk.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Just a further thought. WSPR doesn't of course spread its power ov= er 6Hz it actually transmits full carrier on each of the four frequencies for 0.682 mS and sometimes several of the same element follow without a break in carrier, which accounts for some of the bright spots and lines we see when things are marginal. One element is a longer dot time than 2WPM Morse, and that is SLOW Morse.
Long integration times are out of course.

73 Eddie G3ZJO
=A0

On 27/04/2011 18:58, Roger Lapthorn wrote:
Hi= Eddie (et al)

It is highly unlikely you'd copy Andrew on VLF remembering that the WSPR signal spreads around 6Hz in the transmission burst, so the energy in any narrow FFT bin would be tiny. Also, this is earth mode (I hope, as G6ALB does not hold an NoV to radiate at VLF), so signals are propagating through the ground by conduction and no significant amount of signal is radiated.

I'm still intrigued why the best reception here today was with= my 80sq m vertical loop. This outperformed several earth electrode set-ups here at the RX end, an E-field probe and a 30t loop laying close to copper pipe work in the house!=A0 If the signals are coming down the pipes then why don't these more direct means of couplin= g to them work as well as (or better than) a vertical loop outside? Odd.

73s
Roger G3XBM



On 27 April 2011 18:33, qrss <qrss@talk= talk.net> wrote:
Great stuff Roger and Andrew

If you are RX'ing on an 80m dipole it may be worth a look here, I would never say can't until I have tried. Bearing in mind I should be able to observe signals which would not be decode able on WSPR

I would appreciate a prior notification of times and exact frequency of the WSPR signal of any further tests.

Keep it up.

73 Eddie G3ZJO


On 27/04/2011 15:19, Roger Lapthorn wrote:
As an experiment I changed over to my wife's laptop an= d got immediate decodes of G6ALB's VLF earth mode signal (3km) at -17dB S/N, suggesting the issue with lack of decodes may be with my soundcard and not Andrew's.

1408 -17 -0.6 =A0 0.008986 =A00 G6ALB JO02 47
1410 -17 -0.6 =A0 0.008986 =A00 G6ALB JO02 47
1412 -17 -1.2 =A0 0.008986 =A00 G6ALB JO02 47
1414 -17 -0.8 =A0 0.008986 =A00 G6ALB JO02 47
1416 -17 -0.8 =A0 0.008986 =A00 G6ALB JO02 47

This is a very solid signal on the 80m square single turn vertical wire loop antenna. Andrew is using 44W to an earth electrode antenna.

73s
Roger G3XBM

--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http:= //www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/






--
http://= g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xb= m.co.uk
http= ://www.youtube.com/user/g3xbm
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/





--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/<= br>http://www.g3xbm.c= o.uk
http://www= .youtube.com/user/g3xbm
https://sites.google.com/site/sub9khz/
--20cf303dd95ad6e08504a1ec83fb--