Message-id: <B8C044001C0B4F83A1B224FABCD92C36@DR2>
From: "dave.riley3" <dave.riley3@verizon.net>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
References: <BLU146-W554DAE63110C59234A8A0CF7C0@phx.gbl>
 <38F4A9873A5B474DB6FB337B1B69ABA10D7B925641@HERMES8.ds.leeds.ac.uk>
 <BLU146-W33C287D84C9C7C81FD5C31CF7A0@phx.gbl>
 <000c01c9be89$9ff54c60$6c01a8c0@DELL4>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:55:15 -0400
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Subject: LF: Re: Re: Arcs and sparks - user beware too
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In the days of round aircraft engines and wire HF/MF antennas, you could dep=
end on a 2-3" arc from either wire against A/C ground while flying through h=
eavy weather...
Expensive VanDegraf generator...

On the flip side, you could light your cig from the antenna terminal of the=20=
ART-13 when on a lower frequency...
Just hold a pencil lead near RF terminal, key the TX, and VOILA, cigarette l=
ighter!!!

But that is all gone now...

www.radiocom.net/vx6/connie.htm

Dave @ /17     qrpp 505.750 CW beacon




  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: jrusgrove@comcast.net=20
  To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
  Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:51 AM
  Subject: LF: Re: Arcs and sparks - user beware too


  Electrically charged volcanic ash in a 'cloud' above the antenna? Have obs=
erved some pretty impressive flashovers with thunderstorms passing overhead.=
=20

  Charged ash particles descending on the antenna? Snow, rain and wind stati=
c can make a pretty impressive showing...although not like the passing thund=
erstorm.=20

  Jay
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Laurence BY3A-KL1X China=20
    To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
    Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:19 AM
    Subject: LF: Arcs and sparks - user beware too


    Chris - thanks
    =20
    Yes it was very odd and one of those "what?" times in my professional an=
d ham career when you really want to check and recheck.
    =20
    The cable was short circuited DC wise at the antennae end via the (worki=
ng) Balun  at the time it was unscrewed from the coax - I checked this after=
wards in case it wasnt. I checked the TX/RX side too - nothing there.
    =20
    So the time the coax had to charge was only the time from disconnection=20=
to "touching" which was appx 5 mins. And remember the coax cable was defacto=
 sitting on the "ground" for 80m.
    =20
    Now  - what that charge was is something that Ive been sleeping on. How=20=
about a curved ball and seismic activity beneath where I was staying caused=20=
by rock movement and the piezo affect caused a field to be generated etc? -=20=
ok outlandish, but I was sitting at a base of an active and smouldering volc=
ano and daily tremors were felt....Hmm perhaps not so outlandish after all..=
.but I did check again and again after the fact and no charge was present ag=
ain until we shoved it all back up in the air again a few hours later.
    =20
    However, logically (probably wrongly too given my luck) the amount of "c=
" in pfs for 80m of RG213 aint that large and nothing like capable under nor=
mal circumstances to give such a wallop. Yes it could charge to many Kv I su=
ppose before it reached it breakdown Voltage - and it is a few, but wallop a=
nd (White) flash and bang was audible and visible in daylight about 50 metre=
s away (!) but what mechanism would cause the inner to get a gradient again=20=
the outer,,,,?
    =20
    As I said before, apart for the Whiz Bangs in the deserts of whereever y=
ou really wouldnt think a cable could do that - but it did.=20
    =20
    I learnt a lesson - never, ever presume because a cable is open circuit=20=
that its safe - even one that could normally not have a Pd across it, or is=20=
sitting on the ground.
    =20
    I seem to remember SIDE - Switch Off, Isolate, Dump and Earth.
    =20
    Chaps -  any more suggestions or solutions or was this an enigma?
    =20
    73 Laurence=20
    =20
    > From: C.Trayner@leeds.ac.uk
    > To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
    > Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:07:17 +0100
    > Subject: LF: RE: Arcs and sparks - user beware
    >=20
    > Dear Laurence,
    >=20
    > Thanks for your post.
    > > (Its got a bit of MF in it honest)=20
    > Whether it has or not, it could save one of our lives some day!
    >=20
    > A friend who worked for the London Electricity Board years ago told me=
 a similar story about working on 3-phase underground cables. You disconnect=
 both ends, then before you touch them you short each phase to earth. Rarely=
 will you have happened to disconnect at the zero-volts part of the cycle, s=
o apparently you get some satisfying bangs.
    >=20
    > But that may not completely explain your recent experience. One would=20=
guess that (a) you turned off the Tx before unplugging the aerial and (b) th=
e Tx has a DC path across the aerial socket (e.g a transfo secondary). So di=
d some other process charge up your cable?
    >=20
    > Your experience might suggest that, for those who fiddle with their ae=
rials frequently, it might be worth permanently fitting a resistor (100k, sa=
y) across the two halves; or two, one from each pole to earth.
    >=20
    >=20
    > 73,
    > Chris G4OKW
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. Che=
ck it out.=20

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<BODY class=3Dhmmessage bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">In the days of round aircraft en=
gines=20
and wire HF/MF antennas, you could depend on a 2-3" arc from either wire aga=
inst=20
A/C ground&nbsp;while flying through heavy weather...</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Expensive VanDegraf=20
generator...</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">On the flip side, you could ligh=
t your=20
cig from the antenna terminal of the ART-13 when on a lower=20
frequency...</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Just hold a pencil lead near RF=20
terminal, key the TX, and VOILA, cigarette lighter!!!</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">But that is all gone=20
now...</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><A   href=3D"http://www.radiocom=
.net/vx6/connie.htm">www.radiocom.net/vx6/connie.htm</A></FONT></STRONG></DI=
V>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Dave @ /17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
qrpp 505.750 CW beacon</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr   style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARG=
IN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV     style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black=
"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djrusgrove@comcast.net     href=3D"mailto:jrusgrove@comcast.net"=
>jrusgrove@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drsgb_lf_group@blacks=
heep.org     href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blac=
ksheep.org</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:51=
=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> LF: Re: Arcs and sparks -=20=
user=20
  beware too</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Electrically charged volcanic ash in a 'cloud' abo=
ve the=20
  antenna? Have&nbsp;observed&nbsp;some pretty impressive flashovers=20
  with&nbsp;thunderstorms passing overhead. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Charged ash particles descending on the antenna? S=
now,=20
  rain and wind&nbsp;static can make a pretty impressive showing...although=20=
not=20
  like the passing thunderstorm.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Jay</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE     style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEF=
T: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV       style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: b=
lack"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dhellozerohellozero@hotmail.com       href=3D"mailto:hellozero=
hellozero@hotmail.com">Laurence BY3A-KL1X China</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A       title=3Drsgb_lf_grou=
p@blacksheep.org       href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_=
group@blacksheep.org</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:=
19=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> LF: Arcs and sparks - us=
er=20
    beware too</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>Chris - thanks<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Yes it was very odd and one o=
f=20
    those "what?" times in my professional and ham career when you really wa=
nt=20
    to check and recheck.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>The&nbsp;cable was short circuited DC=
=20
    wise at the antennae end via the (working) Balun&nbsp; at the time it wa=
s=20
    unscrewed from the coax - I checked this afterwards in case it wasnt. I=20
    checked the TX/RX side&nbsp;too -&nbsp;nothing there.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>So th=
e=20
    time the coax had to charge was only the time from disconnection to=20
    "touching" which was appx 5 mins. And remember the coax cable was defact=
o=20
    sitting on the "ground" for 80m.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Now&nbsp; - what that char=
ge=20
    was is something that Ive been sleeping on. How about a curved ball and=20
    seismic activity beneath where I was staying caused by rock movement and=
 the=20
    piezo affect caused a field to be generated etc? - ok outlandish, but I=20=
was=20
    sitting at a base of an active and smouldering volcano and daily tremors=
=20
    were felt....Hmm perhaps not so outlandish after all...but I did check a=
gain=20
    and again after the fact and no charge was present again until we shoved=
 it=20
    all back up in the air again a few hours later.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>However,=20
    logically (probably wrongly too given my luck) the amount of&nbsp;"c" in=
 pfs=20
    for&nbsp;80m of RG213 aint that large and nothing like capable under nor=
mal=20
    circumstances to give such a wallop. Yes it could charge to many Kv I=20
    suppose before it reached it breakdown Voltage - and it is a few,=20
    but&nbsp;wallop and (White) flash and bang was audible and visible in=20
    daylight about 50 metres away (!) but what mechanism would cause the inn=
er=20
    to get a gradient again the outer,,,,?<BR>&nbsp;<BR>As&nbsp;I said befor=
e,=20
    apart for the Whiz&nbsp;Bangs in the&nbsp;deserts of whereever you reall=
y=20
    wouldnt think a cable could do that - but it did. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>I learnt=
 a=20
    lesson - never, ever presume because a cable is open circuit&nbsp;that i=
ts=20
    safe - even one that could normally not have a Pd across it, or is sitti=
ng=20
    on the ground.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I seem to remember SIDE - Switch Off, Isolat=
e,=20
    Dump and Earth.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Chaps -&nbsp; any more suggestions or solut=
ions=20
    or was this an enigma?<BR>&nbsp;<BR>73 Laurence <BR>&nbsp;<BR>&gt; From:=
=20
    C.Trayner@leeds.ac.uk<BR>&gt; To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org<BR>&gt; D=
ate:=20
    Thu, 16 Apr 2009 10:07:17 +0100<BR>&gt; Subject: LF: RE: Arcs and sparks=
 -=20
    user beware<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Dear Laurence,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Thanks for=20=
your=20
    post.<BR>&gt; &gt; (Its got a bit of MF in it honest) <BR>&gt; Whether i=
t=20
    has or not, it could save one of our lives some day!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; A=20
    friend who worked for the London Electricity Board years ago told me a=20
    similar story about working on 3-phase underground cables. You disconnec=
t=20
    both ends, then before you touch them you short each phase to earth. Rar=
ely=20
    will you have happened to disconnect at the zero-volts part of the cycle=
, so=20
    apparently you get some satisfying bangs.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; But that may=20=
not=20
    completely explain your recent experience. One would guess that (a) you=20
    turned off the Tx before unplugging the aerial and (b) the Tx has a DC p=
ath=20
    across the aerial socket (e.g a transfo secondary). So did some other=20
    process charge up your cable?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Your experience might sug=
gest=20
    that, for those who fiddle with their aerials frequently, it might be wo=
rth=20
    permanently fitting a resistor (100k, say) across the two halves; or two=
,=20
    one from each pole to earth.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 73,<BR>&gt; Chris=
=20
    G4OKW<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR><BR>
    <HR>
    Rediscover Hotmail=AE: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. <A=20=
      href=3D"http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_H=
M_Rediscover_Updates2_042009"       target=3D_new>Check it out.</A> </BLOCKQ=
UOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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