Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1102; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id t7FJm2Yb015882 for ; Sat, 15 Aug 2015 21:48:03 +0200 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1ZQhOo-0007NQ-5x for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:45:50 +0100 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1ZQhOn-0007NH-QF for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:45:49 +0100 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQhNe-0008Li-JM for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:45:48 +0100 Received: from Clemens0811 ([213.146.150.143]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LtrKX-1YhHxz1jDJ-011Avs for ; Sat, 15 Aug 2015 21:44:22 +0200 From: "Clemens Paul" To: References: <1156BF06E81A40ED928F77349725D23D@gnat> ,<99F1F2B22A504C2E817619D82E59C59B@Clemens0811> <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A443F4C99@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> In-Reply-To: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A443F4C99@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 20:44:21 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AQHQ1tkpqWjDg32ekUCMkyVhSQoM6Z4L48WAgAFMroCAACgjHIAAHfAw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.1.7601.17609 X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:s4W45y3CN/ncBtDbYmbqhNcH2CgysLjAhB6W0NGvKedKSA7hSjn q3rKttHD86IMMzsJfWI06y4ZyOe4Z6uHISXqMeLaQJcA57L64AG1igsgh/rEIH/534iQ+3S VXYu2C5z+SgPJ2KRioWj9nziCd3J2QbPw9iCT87QTbSM7/a9JeeuL/4LottHVgJuG2Gr4B4 +GGlN9Mew6IMa++zuvAng== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:LEph1QFE4JU=:YfCPdy7gPa72rZPxE3YS5e sn6v3IpwGcy/1nSl3ZrbMGh2VqIT9GO6R8v0VSNg6Ghx5w/m+otDA44xvJrNNAugWY2jcIgdu 0twTJ9xtJx4J+qZumiqxzhKdQWmICQhuWwLicnZvaQ5TGVIwPcpCYb6aqykjAqbergZKxSDu1 wHS1OxYiJyxSlWR/Cpw24qdva6ZKNWwTWx3V6VRytaWbJqjzZyxHshKnNZ0yScwYw1aaj4RTq elhGO6aWHd48zNR1bUmsOUDTvBU7DMlQYpdSPF3+05E2To2SKMoPa8ctMgA4V6e9elio6t9JR kUAG8bmrRKcmR4Vh4O0qIyDIaLpvSw6+1HZoR1ERPIbT0hvq/EZ84TitbLUUOMtOtp500vmQm deFPJUp8Z1KnYg5tiwOebwA+YEYPZKVIM5oUl7C2YZap7r6vKy5AK7rmZd51Ael0bJpA7w70o 4AqjXhBguTlsCvEBFp7cdeya+C0v5aajLaxX9YDGLhZcY5Zlipw5ALZjAUbNBUvRbsJl0XFeu OvwN9eCNPbzBIeNmXpg/yU3FGoYm2uprZ91gy0Iiw8vDGnNGhHOAnyYxMnrdiZXEOkKOHLOpE inQdBs0QxWGfxcanyGIQpqUzOL03xJUgPCy/uodrB6Xlz44kAFIvm9Tdwlx1y2RndtxHM81t/ THk6YSt8uTE5G7vRCGE6WoQuE2sNBJRdma34ECpK5XDn7DsQycxk5XrZPiJlJ9pBJYRnZ8pk6 gXSFqIW13LPMOk/mIj8j5MLgbNmbR6QLbtMRZA== X-Scan-Signature: b08ad821341ca291e1fd930f7b9292d3 Subject: RE: LF: Re: RE: Folded monopole - Food for thought Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3889 Hi Rik and Andy, yes you are completely right. >...but on LF Rrad <<< Rloss... >...where Rrad is more like a few milli-ohms and >the overall extra loss resistance totally dominates... That's the point I've overlooked. 73 Clemens DL4RAJ >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Rik Strobbe >Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 6:55 PM >To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >Subject: RE: LF: Re: RE: Folded monopole - Food for thought > >HI Clemens, > >but on LF Rrad <<< Rloss, in that case it is very close to 6dB. >And often adding a topload wire will decrease Rloss (footprint >theory), so the actue gain will often be more than 6dB. > >73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T > > >________________________________________ >Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >[owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Clemens Paul >[cpaul@gmx.net] >Verzonden: zaterdag 15 augustus 2015 19:28 >Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >Onderwerp: RE: LF: Re: RE: Folded monopole - Food for thought > >Hi Andy, > >>6dB more, not 3dB >>Height squared > >I believe it's neither 3dB nor 6dB increase for ERP. >What is squared by doubling the effective height is is Rrad. >The increase in ERP is by far not so high and depends much on >Rloss (ground and matching). >Example: >Rrad = 50 Ohm; Rloss = 50 Ohm => efficiency = 0.5 >Quadruple Rrad to 200 Ohm then efficiency = 0.8 => 2dB more. >Other Rloss values give completeley different numbers for efficiency. > >73 >Clemens >DL4RAJ > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>[mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Andy Talbot >>Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 10:38 PM >>To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >>Subject: Re: LF: Re: RE: Folded monopole - Food for thought >> >>6dB more, not 3dB >>Height squared >> >>'jnt >> >> >>On 14 August 2015 at 22:31, Alan Melia >> wrote: >> >> >> The problem with a monopole at LF is that the effective >>height is only half (approx) the physical height. For an >>inverted L where the top length is at least twice the height, >>the effective height is close to the physical height .....so >>3dB more ERP. It may not matter so much on 160m (I used a >>16foot centre loaded "tank-whip" at one time :-)) ) but where >> >>