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To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
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Content preview: Hi Graham, similar...? WSPR decodes reliably at -29 dB, Op-2
requires -23 dB. Both SNR figures are referenced to carrier power vs noise
in 2.5 kHz. Op-8 would be equivalent in sensitivity but takes four times
as long, and also conveys less data. [...]
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Subject: Re: LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is based on 17 KHz :)
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Hi Graham,
similar...? WSPR decodes reliably at -29 dB, Op-2 requires -23 dB. Both =
SNR figures are referenced to carrier power vs noise in 2.5 kHz. Op-8 =
would be equivalent in sensitivity but takes four times as long, and =
also conveys less data.
In an optical subcarrier system, FSK will be no more difficult to =
implement than ASK. And no average power is being saved by using 50% =
duty cycle.
Regarding the over the air comparison, please review the comment from =
PA0A, pasted beneath.
Sorry, but some statements just don't become more true by repeating them =
again and again... =20
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)
From: Albert=20
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:25 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Subject: Re: LF: DUAL BEACON WSPR + OPERA 500Khz
Graham,
Regarding your dual mode 500 kHz tests yesterday. For me the absolute =
winner is WSPR, when Opera stopped to decode, due to QSB, WSPR continued =
with decodes at least 3 to 4 dB deeper into the noise.=20
73, Albert PA0A
From: Graham=20
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:24 AM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Subject: Re: LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is based on 17 =
KHz :)
What's you measured error ? ..taking one is peak and one is =
average and the beach mark is different as well, direct read-out =
testing is not satisfactory. =20
Over a live radio path the statement is reasonably correct , op2 =
may on the + side and op4 on the - side =20
I think the statement is technically correct, however , the =
differences in the calibration and method do present a technical =
quandary .
Similar =3D having a resemblance in appearance, character, or =
quantity, without being identical:
In parallel transmission test over 25 miles on 500 k , the two =
modes randomly decoded at and around the same level=20
However system implementation is the key , simplicity of use , with =
minimal hardware requirements. as can be seen on the 136 band , =
many stations are using the system with some very good results =
, hopefully for field work with optical systems it will give a =
reliable lap-top based SDR measuring system . =20
73 -G..=20
From: Markus Vester=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:48 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Subject: Re: LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is based on 17 =
KHz :)
From: Graham=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:18 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
Subject: LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is based on 17 KHz =
:)
...
> and OP2 has similar sensitivity as the wspr system.=20
...
=20
this is definitely not true.
73, Markus
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:st1 =
=3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.17114" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
name=3D"Compose message area">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Graham,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>similar...? WSPR decodes reliably at =
-29 dB,=20
Op-2 requires -23 dB. Both SNR figures are referenced=20
to carrier power vs noise in 2.5 kHz. Op-8 would be equivalent in=20
sensitivity but takes four times as long, and also conveys less=20
data.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial>In an optical =
subcarrier=20
system, FSK will be no more difficult to implement than ASK. And no =
average=20
power is being saved by using 50% duty cycle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial>Regarding the over =
the air=20
comparison, please review the comment from PA0A, pasted=20
beneath.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial>Sorry, but some=20
statements just don't become more true by repeating them again and=20
again... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial>Best =
73,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><FONT face=3DArial>Markus =
(DF6NM)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B></B> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=3Dwestberg@xs4all.nl=20
href=3D"">Albert</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:25 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org STRG + Klicken, um =
Verkn=FCpfung zu folgen"=20
href=3D"">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: LF: DUAL BEACON WSPR + OPERA 500Khz</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dmoz-cite-prefix><B>Graham,<BR><BR>Regarding your dual mode =
500 kHz=20
tests yesterday. For me the absolute winner is WSPR, when Opera stopped =
to=20
decode, due to QSB, WSPR continued with decodes at least 3 to 4 dB =
deeper into=20
the noise. <BR><BR>73, Albert PA0A</B><BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=3Dg8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk=20
href=3D"mailto:g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk">Graham</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:24 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Drsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20
href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is =
based=20
on 17 KHz :)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>What's you measured error ? ..taking =20
one is peak and one is average =
and =20
the beach mark is different as well, =
direct =20
read-out testing is not satisfactory. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Over a live radio path the statement =
is=20
reasonably correct , op2 may on the + =
side =20
and op4 on the - side </DIV>
<DIV>I think the statement is technically correct, =
however ,=20
the differences in the calibration and =
method =20
do present a technical quandary .</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Similar =3D <SPAN class=3Ddefinition>having =
a=20
resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, <STRONG>without being =
identical</STRONG>:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition>In parallel transmission test =
over =20
25 miles on 500 k , the two modes =20
randomly decoded at and around the same level=20
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition>However system implementation is the =
key =20
, simplicity of use , with minimal hardware=20
requirements. as can be seen on the 136 band ,=20
many stations are using the system =
with =20
some very good results , hopefully =
for =20
field work with optical systems =
it =20
will give a reliable lap-top based SDR=20
measuring system . </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition>73 -G.. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Ddefinition></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D3></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D3></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D3></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D3></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:markusvester@aol.com CTRL + Click to follow link"=20
href=3D"mailto:markusvester@aol.com">Markus Vester</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org CTRL + Click to follow =
link"=20
href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is =
based=20
on 17 KHz :)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk CTRL + Click to follow link" =
href=3D"mailto:g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk">Graham</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:18 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org STRG + Klicken, um =
Verkn=FCpfung zu folgen"=20
href=3D"mailto:rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org">rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=
</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> LF: OPERA OPTICAL BEACON (way off topic) but is =
based on 17=20
KHz :)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman">...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">> and OP2<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> =20
</SPAN>has<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>similar<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>sensitivity as<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>the<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>wspr<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>system. </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>...</FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN> </P><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>this is definitely not =
true.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>73, Markus</DIV></FONT></o:p></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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