Return-Path: X-Spam-DCC: paranoid 1102; Body=1 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on lipkowski.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL, HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.1.3 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by paranoid.lipkowski.org (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id u0AGKXt6003110 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:20:33 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1aIIfN-0004uT-Tt for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:16:29 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1aIIfN-0004uK-GQ for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:16:29 +0000 Received: from smtp02.smtpout.orange.fr ([80.12.242.124] helo=smtp.smtpout.orange.fr) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1aIIeN-0004ln-Hk for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:16:28 +0000 Received: from pcn5 ([86.208.91.73]) by mwinf5d03 with ME id 4GF71s00A1axw4e03GF846; Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:15:08 +0100 X-ME-Helo: pcn5 X-ME-Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:15:08 +0100 X-ME-IP: 86.208.91.73 Message-ID: From: "F6CNI - Andy - JN19QB" To: "RSGB LF Group" References: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444AD460@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be>,<8D319CF354F3AA6-530-5191A9@webmail-vd006.sysops.aol.com> <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444AD4C0@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> In-Reply-To: <7E7DFBB4D102A04DB5ADC88D66628A4A444AD4C0@ICTS-S-MBX1.luna.kuleuven.be> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:15:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 16.4.3564.1216 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V16.4.3564.1216 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 160110-0, 10/01/2016), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Scan-Signature: d4b11820086e28e9e085cef3e7768d06 Subject: LF: ERP - EIRP - PAR... Some comments. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01D14BCA.7333B2E0" X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.56 on 10.1.3.10 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6255 Ce message est composi et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01D14BCA.7333B2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all. I agree 100% with RIK. Yes, and in France the EIRP limit is 1 Watt only, because the minimum = distance from the south coast in France to Algeria is below 800 km (621 = km exactly). This 1 Watt EIRP means about 0.6 Watt ERP (In France the ERP is call PAR = =E2=80=9CPuissance Apparente Rayonn=C3=A9e=E2=80=9D), due to the 2.14 dB = isotropic gain of a monopole over a perfect ground. Even if the ground = is not perfect (outside of the main lobe formation, that is the begining = of the Fraunhofer zone), a 2 db value is a reasonable choice. If you have a very good antenna ( i.e. 30 meters vertical part, a large = top hat capacitance, and a good ground system, your antenna has around = 10% effeciency), you need only 6 Watts output TX to have 1 W EIRP. But = using a short vertical without top hat and not good ground (perhaps 0.1% = efficiency) you need a 600 Watts TX to reach the legal limit. HI ! On the way : yes, on MF and LF bands it is a good choice to show your = EIRP power. 73 de Andy F6CNI. From: Rik Strobbe=20 Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:36 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: RE: LF: RE: JT9 actvity... Hi Markus, not everywhere! The outcome of WRC-12 was: "The maximum equivalent isotropically radiated power (e.i.r.p.) of = stations in the amateur service using frequencies in the band 472-479 = kHz shall not exceed 1 W. Administrations may increase this limit of = e.i.r.p. to 5 W in portions of their territory which are at a distance = of over 800 km from the borders of Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, = Bahrain, Belarus, China, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, = the Russian Federation, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Jordan, = Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, = Uzbekistan, Qatar, Syrian Arab Republic, Kyrgyzstan, Somalia, Sudan, = Tunisia, Ukraine and Yemen. In this frequency band, stations in the = amateur service shall not cause harmful interference to, or claim = protection from, stations of the aeronautical radionavigation service." In Belgium the power limit is 5W EIRP (3 W ERP), I believe this is also = the case in the Netherland, UK and Ireland. But you are right about the saturation. With the right antenna (height) = it is easy to produce many 10's W ERP with a few 100W TX power. 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Markus Vester = [markusvester@aol.com] Verzonden: zondag 10 januari 2016 16:03 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: RE: JT9 actvity... Note however that the power scale saturates at 1 W ERP, which is (by = definition) the largest power an amateur can possibly radiate on LF and = MF ;-) Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) =20 -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----=20 Von: Rik Strobbe An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: So, 10 Jan 2016 3:42 pm Betreff: LF: RE: JT9 actvity...=20 Hello Szigy,=20 regarding the declared power level in WSPR: Most stations declare their = ERP, not =20 PA output.=20 =20 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T=20 =20 ________________________________________=20 Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org = [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] =20 namens Szigy [yo2is@wa7v.ampr.org]=20 Verzonden: zaterdag 9 januari 2016 20:22=20 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Onderwerp: LF: JT9 actvity...=20 =20 From: YO2IS=20 Hello from KN05ps,=20 was pleased to take part in the 8 ian JT9 activity.=20 Lot of signals received, propagation was similar to 2m Es !=20 very short openings from unexpected QTF's.=20 Nice QSO with DG3LV in JO53, IZ7SLZ responded to my CQ he was=20 a solid -23 then nil. Received again OR7T -27, we had a nice=20 QSO a day before, also wkd DC1RJJ who responded to my CQ !!.=20 CWNR, several times IW4DXW up to -24 and DF7FC -20 he often is=20 reporting my WSPR-2 nil in JT9...=20 My TVRT / IRF540 had only 20 W out into the 41m sloping wire.=20 it seems that the IC-7000 is not as bad for reception on LF / MF.=20 Surprised also by the WSPR-2 results, litle confused with the=20 received signal levels versus de declared power dBm! are real ?...=20 Enjoy the good winter conditions.=20 73 & DX, Szigy.=C3=BF=C3=BE?=C3=BF=C3=BE?=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01D14BCA.7333B2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all.
 
I agree 100% with RIK.
 
Yes, and in France the EIRP limit is 1 Watt only, because the = minimum=20 distance from the south coast in France to Algeria is below 800 km (621 = km=20 exactly).
 
This 1 Watt EIRP means about 0.6 Watt ERP (In France the ERP is = call PAR=20 =E2=80=9CPuissance Apparente Rayonn=C3=A9e=E2=80=9D), due to the 2.14 dB = isotropic gain of a monopole=20 over a perfect ground. Even if the ground is not perfect (outside of the = main=20 lobe formation, that is the begining of the Fraunhofer zone), a 2 db = value is a=20 reasonable choice.
 
If you have a very good antenna ( i.e. 30 meters vertical part, a = large top=20 hat capacitance, and a good ground system, your antenna has around 10%=20 effeciency), you need only 6 Watts output TX to have 1 W EIRP. But using = a short=20 vertical without top hat and not good ground (perhaps 0.1% efficiency) = you need=20 a 600 Watts TX to reach the legal limit. HI !
 
On the way : yes, on MF and LF bands it is a good choice to show = your EIRP=20 power.
 
73 de Andy F6CNI.
 
 
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:36 PM
Subject: RE: LF: RE: JT9 actvity...
 

Hi Markus,

 

not everywhere!

 

The outcome of WRC-12 was:

"The maximum equivalent isotropically radiated power (e.i.r.p.) = of=20 stations in the amateur service using frequencies in the band 472-479 = kHz shall=20 not exceed 1 W. Administrations may increase this = limit of=20 e.i.r.p. to 5 W in portions of their territory which are at a distance = of over=20 800 km from the borders of Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, = Belarus,=20 China, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, the Russian = Federation,=20 Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Lebanon, = Libya,=20 Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Uzbekistan, Qatar, Syrian Arab Republic, = Kyrgyzstan,=20 Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, Ukraine and Yemen. In this frequency = band,=20 stations in the amateur service shall not cause harmful interference to, = or=20 claim protection from, stations of the aeronautical radionavigation=20 service."

 

In Belgium the power limit is 5W EIRP (3 W ERP), I believe this is = also the=20 case in the Netherland, UK and Ireland.

 

But you are right about the saturation. With the right antenna = (height) it is=20 easy to produce many 10's W ERP with a few 100W TX power.

 

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T

 

Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Markus Vester=20 [markusvester@aol.com]
Verzonden: zondag 10 januari 2016=20 16:03
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: = Re: LF:=20 RE: JT9 actvity...

 
Note however that the power scale saturates at 1 W ERP, which is = (by=20 definition) the largest power an amateur can possibly radiate on LF and = MF=20 ;-)
 
Best 73,
Markus (DF6NM)

 
-----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: = Rik Strobbe=20 <rik.strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
An: rsgb_lf_group=20 <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: So, 10 Jan 2016 3:42 = pm
Betreff: LF: RE: JT9 actvity...=20 
Hello Szigy, 


regarding the declared power level =
in WSPR: Most stations declare their ERP, not  

PA output. 

 

73, Rik  ON7YD - OR7T 

 

________________________________________ 

Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]  

namens Szigy [yo2is@wa7v.ampr.org] 

Verzonden: zaterdag 9 januari 2016 20:22 

Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org 

Onderwerp: LF: JT9 actvity... 

 


From: YO2IS 

 Hello from KN05ps, 

was pleased to take part in the 8 ian JT9 activity. 

 Lot of signals received, propagation was similar to 2m Es ! 

very short openings from unexpected QTF's. 

 Nice QSO with DG3LV in JO53, IZ7SLZ responded to my CQ he was 

a solid -23 then nil. Received again OR7T -27, we had a nice 

QSO a day before, also wkd DC1RJJ who responded to my CQ !!. 

 CWNR, several times IW4DXW up to -24 and DF7FC -20 he often is 

reporting my WSPR-2 nil in JT9... 

 My TVRT / IRF540 had only 20 W out into the 41m sloping wire. 

it seems that the IC-7000 is not as bad for reception on LF / MF. 

 Surprised also by the  WSPR-2 results, litle confused with the 

received signal levels versus de declared power dBm! are real ?... 

 Enjoy the good winter conditions. 

   73 & DX, Szigy.=C3=BF=C3=BE?=C3=BF=C3=BE?

 
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