Return-Path: Received: from mtain-dc02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-dc02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.130]) by air-dc09.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDC093-86554d67dbf72de; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:42:31 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-dc02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 912FC380000AF; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1Pt0ja-00048I-AT for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:41:38 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Pt0jZ-000489-G4 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:41:37 +0000 Received: from mail-iw0-f171.google.com ([209.85.214.171]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Pt0jW-0006nS-I2 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:41:37 +0000 Received: by iwr19 with SMTP id 19so1579202iwr.16 for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=zsTd9OyzvE40IqWElMebDrnOsqZUu7VKldSnDlnjrdA=; b=uzOw4SFhMvAT7zlpsvAr3Ur0agYUWAgGELmkU8RI/ZQoh2AQE+dm62W+6wWymv9D5t ZWeJ3jURgAdiigT9YUXmmJqRIH/rvSmDRzhhHsEFiiUrm1pUJrNNBUKmU0fWGiC6X6gb hqpmSSGidVqZ8LN/nED+3FN7JRtcCJmpy44Gk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=GfVbS4jeitDw1eaVJ6Is5mUZdw9bZ32Ire+1KnD6AybjoPmgB21EHLnqkN9X2Y6pke X33Vc1y2/wsTDlH8ZUZrW2N8yCVuNj8uyNcPfOu3C8E6Ox5zQZyiq97wpWE4Y98ILGGe EoYaYj1vOZx7iyH03CFxVr2rsdMMIYDZ5sFeI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.75.6 with SMTP id y6mr998997icj.46.1298652087593; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.205.196 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:41:27 +0000 Message-ID: From: Andy Talbot To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,HTML_OBFUSCATE_10_20=1.397 Subject: LF: Re: : Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequencies on the 500 KHz band. Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba3fd8f55e29e8049d1e00f1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d025.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40824d67dbf56c23 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --90e6ba3fd8f55e29e8049d1e00f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ... and now with the subject line correctly spelt ... On 25 February 2011 16:23, Andy Talbot wrote: > In the absence of any further advice, or useful comments > Its running again, unchanged, on the original frequency. > > And observing that several others are still in the 503800 - 504000 regio= n > > 503875Hz > > > Andy > www.g4jnt.com > > > > On 15 February 2011 14:47, M0FMT wrote: > >> Well Rik I am glad you used the word "Over regulation" if you are onl= y >> talking about a sensible and locally agreed arrangement like me taking= my >> low-power beacon off when requested then I am not against it (The fact= I am >> identifiable by virtue of CW means I can be contacted to say, turn it= off). >> >> Your comments about other countries having the same band is well taken.= I >> thought DL's could set up camp anywhere but had to be fixed frequency= and LA >> , OZ had oodles of spectrum to VFO around. >> >> At least in the Wild West every body had a gun! >> >> I hope you understand I am just putting the counter view to a carve up= of >> 500kc/s it looked like a land grab to me very reminiscent to the Wild= West! >> >> 73 es GL petefmt >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Rik Strobbe >> *To:* "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" >> *Sent:* Tue, 15 February, 2011 14:14:53 >> *Subject:* RE: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR >> frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band. >> >> Pete, >> >> I agree that there is no need for strickt regulation (and certainly no >> overregulation). >> But some agreements to "live and let live" will help. At least to me it >> makes sense that automated operations happen at the band edges (as it >> is done now most of the time). >> I am afraid that the "wild west" will lead to will lead to wild west >> situations (where often a lot of fighting is involved). >> Regarding 501-504kHz: this is certainly not UK only. Also ON, PA, OK an= d >> EA are limited to this band. >> >> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ >> owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co.uk] >> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 februari 2011 14:23 >> *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Onderwerp:* LF: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WS= PR >> frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band. >> >> I operate a low power Beacon on 501.15kc/s so I bag that frequency no= w. >> I have already been shooed off 500 at week ends, but to bag the frequen= cies >> I guess it needs to stay on 24/7. I also some times operate at the uppe= r >> band edge so I bag that frequency also. I will be issuing a list of my >> favourite frequencies to bagsy them as well shortly. >> >> Rik .. EU station have plenty of channels outside the UK 501 / 504 to= play >> on. >> >> This is the RSGB style channelisation of 2/70 in the early 70's all ove= r >> again. IMHO this band should be like the Wild West no, "no go" areas. >> >> 73 es GL petefmt >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* mal hamilton >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Sent:* Tue, 15 February, 2011 11:21:19 >> *Subject:* LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR >> frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band. >> >> This seems a sensible approach. Time division. Keep to the same freq in >> time slots. >> g3kev >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Rik Strobbe >> *To:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *Cc:* Joe Taylor >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:23 AM >> *Subject:* LF: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency= =92s >> on the 500 KHz band. >> >> Hello Graham, >> >> I would suggest to have all digital modes as close as possible to the= band >> edges, leaving the band centre for CW. >> For WSPR there are currently 2 segments: one for EU stations to transmi= t >> on (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one NA stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/= - >> 100Hz) to avoid local QRM (or better said RX overload). >> So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kHz +/- 100Hz for other digimodes ? >> It would be possible to have a single data segment for EU and NA it we= go >> from frequency division to time division: if all EU stations would tran= smit >> in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06, xx:08-xx:10 ... time slots and all NA >> stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-xx-08 ... time slots they can use th= e >> same frequency without local QRM. >> But this would require a minor chang in the WSPR software (and maybe al= so >> other software). >> >> 73, Rik ON7YD - OR7T >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Van:* owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ >> owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Graham [ >> g8fzk@g8fzk.fsnet.co.uk] >> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20 >> *Aan:* rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> *CC:* Joe Taylor >> *Onderwerp:* LF: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s= on >> the 500 KHz band. >> >> *Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the = 500 >> KHz band.* >> >> >> >> The original wspr frequency 502.4 was defined as the working >> frequency to utilise the =91clean=92 area just under the 504 harm= onic, >> whilst avoiding the various beacons running across the 501/504 = band >> at the time. However, time has moved on and there are now numerous =91= dial >> setting=92s=92 in use both sides of the Atlantic. >> >> >> >> Due to an apparent increase in the side band noise from the 504 >> signal , possibly by enhanced propagation , the ROS MF (100 hz b/w= ) >> working frequency is to be re defined as 500 USB dial set giving= a >> centre carrier frequency of 501.500 >> >> >> >> Due to Ae bandwidth and perhaps alignment with other band=92s= , I >> would suggest the original WSPR 502.4K is replaced with the lowe= r >> frequency of 495.9K , thus restoring the System=92s coverage and >> facilitating changes of mode etc within a narrow bandwidth. >> >> >> >> I don=92t see this detracting from the monitoring of spot frequen= cy >> beacons over 505Khz , but more appropriate to transmitting statio= ns >> , which by the nature of the antenna arrays are not able >> comfortably to qsy from top to bottom of the band without >> re-tuning, not always a simple option. >> >> >> >> Comments or suggestions please ?. >> >> >> >> Graham >> >> G0NBD >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > --90e6ba3fd8f55e29e8049d1e00f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...=A0 and now with the subject line correctly spelt ...

On 25 February 2011 16:23, Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@gmail.com= > wrote:
In the absence of any further advice, or useful comments=A0
Its running again, unchanged,=A0on the original frequency.
=A0
And observing that several others are still in the 503800 - 504000=A0= region
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 503875Hz
=A0
=A0
Andy


=A0
On 15 February 2011 14:47, M0FMT <m0fmt@yahoo= .co.uk> wrote:
Well Rik I am glad you used the word "Over regulation" if= you are only talking about a sensible and locally agreed arrangement like= me taking my low-power beacon off when requested then I am not against it= (The fact I am identifiable by virtue of CW means I can be contacted to= say, turn it off).
=A0
Your comments about other countries having the same band is well take= n. I thought DL's could set up camp anywhere but had to be fixed frequ= ency and LA , OZ had oodles of spectrum to VFO around.
=A0
At least in the Wild West every body had a gun!=A0
=A0
I hope you understand I am just putting the counter view to a carve= up of 500kc/s it looked like a land grab to me very reminiscent to the Wi= ld West!
=A0
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe= @fys.kuleuven.be>
To: "rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org" <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>= ;
Sent: Tue, 15 February, 20= 11 14:14:53
Subject: RE= : Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s= on the 500 KHz band.

Pete,
=A0
I agree that there is no need for strickt regulation (and certainly= no overregulation).
But some agreements to "live and let live" will help. At le= ast to me it makes sense that automated operations happen at the band edge= s (as it is=A0done now most of the time).
I am afraid that the "wild west" will lead to will lead to= wild west situations (where often a lot of fighting is involved).
Regard= ing 501-504kHz: this is certainly not UK only. Also ON, PA, OK and EA are= limited to this band.=A0
=A0
73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T
=A0
Van: owner-rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens M0= FMT [m0fmt@yahoo.co= .uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 14:23
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blac= ksheep.org
Onderwerp: LF: Re: LF: Re: RE: Alignment of (Narr= ow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

I operate a low power Beacon on 501.15kc/s so=A0I bag that frequency= now. I have already been shooed=A0off 500 at week ends, but to bag the fr= equencies I guess it needs to stay on 24/7. I also=A0some times operate at= the upper band edge so=A0I bag that frequency also. I will=A0be issuing= a list of my favourite frequencies to bagsy them as well shortly.
=A0
Rik .. EU station have plenty of channels outside the UK 501 / 504 to= play on.
=A0
This is the RSGB style channelisation of 2/70 in the early 70's= all over again. IMHO this band should be like the Wild West no, "no= go" areas.
=A0
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: mal hamilton <g3kevmal@talktalk= .net>
To: rsgb_lf_group@= blacksheep.org
Sent: Tue, 15 February, 20= 11 11:21:19
Subject: LF= : Re: RE: Alignment of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 50= 0 KHz band.

This seems a sensible approach. Time division.= Keep to the same freq in time slots.
g3kev
=A0
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 7:= 23 AM
Subject: LF: RE: Alignment of (Narr= ow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

Hello Graham,
=A0
I would suggest to have all digital= modes as close as possible to the band edges, leaving the band centre for= CW.
For WSPR there=A0are currently=A02= segments: one for EU stations to transmit on (503.9kHz +/- 100Hz) and one= NA stations to transmit on (501.1kHz +/- 100Hz) to avoid local QRM (or be= tter said RX overload).
So 503.7kHz +/- 100Hz and/or 501.3kH= z +/- 100Hz for other digimodes ?
It would be possible to have a singl= e data segment for EU and NA it we go from frequency division to time divi= sion: if all EU stations would transmit in the xx:00-xx:02, xx:04-xx:06,= xx:08-xx:10 ... time slots and all NA stations in the xx:02-xx:04, xx:06-= xx-08 ... time slots they can use the same frequency without local QRM.
But this would require a minor chang= in the WSPR software (and maybe also other software).
=A0
73, Rik=A0 ON7YD - OR7T
=A0
Van: owner-rsgb_lf= _group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens Gr= aham [g8fzk@g= 8fzk.fsnet.co.uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 februari 2011 2:20
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@black= sheep.org
CC: Joe Taylor
Onderwerp: LF: Alignment= of (Narrow Band) DATA and WSPR frequency=92s on the 500 KHz band.

Alignment of =A0(Narrow Band) DATA =A0and =A0WSPR=A0 frequency=92s on the=A0 500 KHz=A0 band.

= =A0

= The=A0 original wspr frequency =A0=A0502.4= =A0 was=A0 defined=A0 as the=A0 working=A0 frequency=A0 to=A0 u= tilise the=A0 =91clean=92 area=A0 just under the= =A0 504=A0 harmonic, whilst avoiding the= =A0 various=A0 beacons=A0 running= =A0 across=A0 the=A0 501/504=A0 band at the=A0 time. However, time has moved on and there= are now numerous =91dial setting=92s=92 in use both sides of the <= span lang=3D"EN-GB">Atlantic.

= =A0

= Due to=A0 an apparent =A0increase=A0 in the=A0 side band=A0 noise=A0 f= rom the=A0 504 signal , possibly by=A0 enhanced<= span>=A0 propagation , the=A0 ROS=A0 MF =A0(10= 0 hz b/w) working=A0 frequency is=A0 to be re de= fined as=A0 500=A0 U= SB dial=A0 set=A0 gi= ving a=A0 centre=A0 carrier=A0 freq= uency of 501.500 =A0

= =A0

= Due=A0 to=A0 Ae=A0 bandwidth and=A0 perhaps =A0alignment=A0 with= =A0 =A0other=A0 =A0band=92s,= =A0I =A0=A0would=A0 suggest the or= iginal WSPR =A0502.4K is=A0 replaced=A0 with the=A0 lower frequency =A0of=A0= 495.9K , thus=A0 restoring the=A0 System= =92s=A0 coverage and=A0 facilitating=A0 changes=A0 of mode etc within a=A0 narrow= bandwidth.

= =A0

= I don=92t =A0see=A0 this=A0 detract= ing=A0 from the monitoring=A0 of spot=A0= frequency=A0 beacons=A0 over 505Khz , bu= t more=A0 appropriate=A0=A0 to=A0 t= ransmitting=A0 stations , which=A0 by the= =A0 nature of the=A0 antenna arrays are=A0 not=A0 able=A0 comfortably=A0 to<= span>=A0 qsy=A0 from=A0 top=A0 to=A0 bottom of the=A0 band without=A0 re-tun= ing, not=A0 always a=A0 simple=A0 option.

= =A0

= Comments=A0 or=A0 suggestions please ?.

= =A0

= Graham

= G0NBD

= =A0







--90e6ba3fd8f55e29e8049d1e00f1--