Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id BB2E2380000D1; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 17:09:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UDLyI-0007DM-0I for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:33:58 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UDLyH-0007DB-7j for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:33:57 +0000 Received: from smtpout4.wanadoo.co.uk ([80.12.242.68] helo=smtpout.wanadoo.co.uk) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDLyE-0000yT-LH for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 21:33:56 +0000 Received: from AGB ([2.26.14.174]) by mwinf5d48 with ME id 8MZZ1l00g3lKFV603MZZ2t; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 22:33:34 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Graham" To: References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> <28D988F084DC4B01BAE740875A32BD37@PcMinto> In-Reply-To: <28D988F084DC4B01BAE740875A32BD37@PcMinto> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 21:33:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: And more fun to change the look-up tables and send at non standard baud rates .. that did upset the mechanical chap's : ) May be we are seeing a data spring , or wspr has finally driven everyone to the point of madness and this is some sort mass hysteria [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [80.12.242.68 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Scan-Signature: 57c46fc57df9e768804caa43485df2f4 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CB_01CE1AB2.40FAEB50" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60165137beb22034 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01CE1AB2.40FAEB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And more fun to change the look-up tables and send at non = standard baud rates .. that did upset the mechanical chap's : ) May be we are seeing a data spring , or wspr has finally = driven everyone to the point of madness and this is some sort = mass hysteria=20 G.. From: Minto Witteveen=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 9:25 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: RTTY Protocol Ha Yes that is also what I remember from my early HAM days: in 1979 I = wrote an RTTY program for my apple II, and I also inserted plenty of = lettershifts. One single lettershift missed by the receiver might result = in one or more lines with useless figures... I now insert a lettershift before ever space (I know that fldigi = automatically reverts to lettershift after a space, but anyhow). And = also a ls after each CR/LF. Losts of activity now on 478.200+ 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 20:09 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: Re: Re: RTTY Protocol Hi Minto the other trick when mechanicals were around was always to = transmit a figure as fs9ls even if another figure was to follow. This = ensures the machine doesnt slip into fs mode ....most text is letters so = the extra char doesnt use a lot of time.. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:57 PM Subject: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol My PIC software now does the following when starting a RTTY = transmission: * Start the TX (mark) * wait 500 ms to =E2=80=98wake up=E2=80=99 the receiver to the mark * send two NULL characters to get the receiver in sync (probably not = necessary?) * then (always) send a letter or figure shift depending on the first = =E2=80=98real=E2=80=99 character to transmit. * then send the text = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 14:38 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20 That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and = receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone =3D = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. Yes yes. BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical days = did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead = of Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think = being RY with LetFig set wrong. Eddie 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the = highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent of = which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the = commercial stations Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US used a = 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of either type = would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing was = mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing = sync. with simple mechanical governors. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old days=E2=80=99 = (amateur) RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the = idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would = be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)=20 So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6 Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur reversed, = as in AFSK on USB). I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped = around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This = explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just right. This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the = high tone AND the low(est) frequency. What _is_ the consensus (if any)? 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol Graham Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other = Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless = the REV is pressed. From Wiki the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).=20 Another site says You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether the = lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds to = "Mark" or "space"). Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says. Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier waves to = allow for the original signals to come through Eddie ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01CE1AB2.40FAEB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And  more  fun to  change the  look-up tables = and=20 send  at  non  standard  baud rates .. that  = did =20 upset  the  mechanical chap's : )
 
May be  we are  seeing  a  data  = spring  ,=20 or   wspr  has  finally  driven  = everyone =20 to  the  point of  madness and  this  is = some =20 sort  mass  hysteria
 
G..
 
 

From: Minto Witteveen
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: Re: RTTY Protocol

Ha Yes that is also what I remember from my early HAM days: in 1979 = I wrote=20 an RTTY program for my apple II, and I also inserted plenty of = lettershifts. One=20 single lettershift missed by the receiver might result in one or more = lines with=20 useless figures...
I now insert a lettershift before ever space (I know that fldigi=20 automatically reverts to lettershift after a space, but anyhow). And = also a ls=20 after each CR/LF.
 
Losts of activity now on 478.200+
 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca.
 
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 20:09
Subject: LF: Re: Re: RTTY Protocol
 
Hi Minto the other trick when = mechanicals were=20 around was always to transmit a figure  as fs9ls even if another = figure was=20 to follow. This ensures the machine doesnt slip into fs mode ....most = text is=20 letters so the extra char doesnt use a lot of time..
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Minto Witteveen
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org= =20
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 = 1:57=20 PM
Subject: LF: Re: RTTY = Protocol
 

My PIC software now does the following when starting a = RTTY=20 transmission:
* Start the TX (mark)
* wait 500 ms to = =E2=80=98wake up=E2=80=99 the=20 receiver to the mark
* send two NULL characters to get the receiver = in sync=20 (probably not necessary?)
* then (always) send a letter or figure = shift=20 depending on the first =E2=80=98real=E2=80=99 character to = transmit.
* then send the=20 text

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 14:38
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol
 
On=20 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems)=20 told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender = and=20 receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest = tone =3D=20 highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is = used.
Yes=20 yes.

BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the = mechanical=20 days did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software=20 have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead of = Letters.=20 This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being RY with = LetFig=20 set wrong.

Eddie

 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) = with mechanical=20 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone)  It = was=20 independent of which sideband was used. I think this was also the = mode used=20 by the commercial stations
Remember only European lines used = bi-polar=20 signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A = mechanical=20 machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held = in Mark.=20 Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain = character=20 timing sync. with simple mechanical governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Minto Witteveen
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, = 2013 11:09=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY = Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old = days=E2=80=99  (amateur) RTTY was done = with the=20 rig in LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and space at = 2295 hz=20 and mark being the idling position, when using LSB the actual = transmitted=20 frequencies would be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)
So = MTTY seems to assume rig=20 at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. = amateur=20 reversed, as in AFSK on USB). =20 I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85=20 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by = fldigi=20 because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This explains why = fldigi decodes me=20 (and Stefan) just right.

This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means=20 AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est) = frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if=20 any)?

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just confirmed=20 by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other Software. Others = idle on=20 the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless the REV is=20 pressed.


From Wiki
the upper = tone used=20 for idle condition (MARK).

Another site=20 says
You also have to switch the correct phase position = (whether=20 the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation = corresponds=20 to "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a Ham education site = on the=20 subject says.
Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out = the carrier waves=20 to allow for the original signals to come=20 through

Eddie


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