Return-Path: Received: from mtain-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.14]) by air-db05.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDB052-861f4b86b1a1151; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:21:37 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 0E022380000E8; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NkhNm-0006En-VY for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:20:14 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NkhNm-0006Ee-0w for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:20:14 +0000 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NkhNi-00075v-N5 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:20:13 +0000 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so4751888bwz.4 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:20:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=d/vf4k6GJvnlT8eACFjRz7A2APq9pKv2SGzAQc2k9pY=; b=QAvqGcHjXPkbrN2ubfIyS/OHnWFQYuxEI577d6S45HBbhjHPML+f3kONya2Scay2zq wTo13qvdR7ilRV2sttm+to7aXNsIlVpJ8TL2gGM86fvwQk3FTIPMFYY9J060IINVGY7i vBOh2I/ssr7kvH4lis8JijBSD3g4tL5AUIDAQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Gz4DVdaE5wNl4URecdWNOId9A3jmLpweaJcRV9csNIQfMJbv+QAaxbgc+1GVtnC9Dm T2kQsgT9vOXrm2aJIdEwr+f3+xKG1C6CLwV6h26zwMNe8PBjSdSGqSoNwAoMPIBDJLTU 6RhE0dAuo3htVJ0Qq3bkkAPvyOsxffiZrgCIw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.33.210 with SMTP id i18mr817458bkd.119.1267118404245; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:20:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <9afca2641002221442s72f18373t26847ca0487ac2b1@mail.gmail.com> <9afca2641002230232k3af949e6kcd2fe2a53b11d822@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:19:58 +0000 Message-ID: <9afca2641002250919y7bdb25ebq8b913bb7d210e488@mail.gmail.com> From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,TVD_FW_GRAPHIC_ID3=2 Subject: LF: Fwd: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=00032555971e5f9c4b04806ffe50 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.1 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-VSS-INFO: 5400.1158/55501 X-AOL-VSS-CODE: clean X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d296.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : fail x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d600e4b86b19d6656 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --00032555971e5f9c4b04806ffe50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555971e5f9c4504806ffe4f --00032555971e5f9c4504806ffe4f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable People may be interested in the reply from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM received today. I asked him what OFCOM's view would be. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Rod Wilkinson Date: 25 February 2010 15:20 Subject: RE: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? To: Roger Lapthorn Hello Roger, Well, quicker than I thought we=92d be I have some info for you regarding= the possibility of operating on 9kHz. Apparently Ofcoms=92 Spectrum Management Team were approached back in 2006= by Colin Thomas G3PSM in his role as RSGB Spectrum Director. We understood at that time there was some interest in 9kHz, especially from Andy Talbot, G4JNT. However nothing came of it on that occasion. That has though allowed a head start this time and my colleagues in the Spectrum Team see no reason why Amateur operation/experimentation can not take place on 9kHz. They state that ITU Radio Regs indicate that there is= no allocation for frequencies below 9 kHz. However in the UK, a licence would be required as there is no lower frequency limit for wireless telegraphy under the WT Act 2006. This would be in the form of a Notice of Variation for an existing licensee and will be awarded much on the same lines as for operating on 501-504kHz. Also any operation will be subject to a non interference basis to other active facilities and systems using that part= of the spectrum. We will need to revisit the likes of the Met Office who were approached during the original enquires to confirm that they remain conten= t with the agreed arrangements. All this, will of course, need to be done prior to the NoV being granted. So it does seem a possibility and if you and any others wish to proceed please complete an application from for a Special Research Permit availabl= e at: www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/amateur/applications/ofw= 306.pdf Please provide as much detail as possible and send it to me and I will liaise with appropriate colleagues. I hope that helps. Vy 73 Rod *Rod Wilkinson* OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio 020 7783 4488 (direct line) Rod.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk *Ofcom* Riverside House 2a Southwark Bridge Road London SE1 9HA 020 7981 3000 www.ofcom.org.uk *Have you changed** **your address recently?** * *Update your details** **on the** **Ofcom **Amateur and Ships** Licensing= ** Service** * * * *http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/** * * * *[image: Ofcom - Office of Communications]* *From:* Roger Lapthorn [mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com] *Sent:* 23 February 2010 10:33 AM *To:* Rod Wilkinson *Subject:* Re: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? Many thanks Rod. I fully understand, and would expect, some delay in any response from OFCO= M regarding operation below 9kHz. 73s Roger G3XBM On 23 February 2010 08:23, Rod Wilkinson wrot= e: Hello Roger, Many thanks for your very interesting mail. To ensure that I obtain the correct answer regarding operating below 9kHz= I will need to take advice from Ofcoms=92 spectrum management team and possi= bly the lawyers too. So please accept this as a holding reply and I will get back to you as soo= n as possible. But be aware please that it may run into weeks rather than days. Vy 73 Rod PS sincere congratulations on exceed the 1000km mark on 500kHz! *Rod Wilkinson* OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio 020 7783 4488 (direct line) Rod.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk *Ofcom* Riverside House 2a Southwark Bridge Road London SE1 9HA 020 7981 3000 www.ofcom.org.uk *Have you changed** **your address recently?** * *Update your details** **on the** **Ofcom **Amateur and Ships** Licensing= ** Service** * * * *http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/** * * * *[image: Ofcom - Office of Communications]* *From:* Roger Lapthorn [mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com] *Sent:* 22 February 2010 10:43 PM *To:* Rod Wilkinson *Subject:* Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz? Dear Rod, On the RSGB's LF reflector, there has been some discussion in the last few days about experimentation at frequencies below 9kHz. Many years ago (arou= nd 1970) I held a couple of Test and Development licences (G9BGU and G9BIB)= for such experiments and I wrote up the results in Radio Communications magazi= ne in 1975. It's a fascinating part of the spectrum to explore. In some countries the approval authorities have simply said that below 9kH= z is not allocated by the ITU and therefore they have no issues with amateur= s operating experimentally in this part of the spectrum. As far as I am awar= e, the only use for frequencies below 9kHz is for sferic monitoring, VLF emissions research (whistler reception, etc), slow data rate signalling to submerged submarines (although I believe this has now been replaced by oth= er methods) and some slow data rate FSK modulation of the mains power grid system. I cannot imagine amateur operation being a credible interference threat to any of these. At such frequencies, any "antenna" erected by a radio amateur would, in a traditional sense, would be incredibly inefficient and far field radiation immeasurably low. Therefore communication would, for all intents and purposes, only be possible by conduction currents through earth or sea (so called "earth mode") or induction and not by radiation in a true radio sense. Attenuation rates are therefore much higher and potential range ver= y limited. I think some in the amateur radio community are interested in experimenting with very weak signal modes to "push the envelope" on range= at these basement frequencies. There is no doubt that modes like QRSS30, QRSS= 60 or WSPR would allow greater ranges to be spanned than traditional modulati= on modes like normal speed CW, albeit not that far even so (kilometres at bes= t rather than hundreds of kilometres). So, I wonder what OFCOM's view would be. Would a permit be needed at all?= If yes, would OFCOM issue Special Research Permits (NoVs) on a case-by-case basis as at 500kHz? Kind regards Roger Lapthorn G3XBM (500kHz NoV holder) --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 **************************************************************************= **************************************** For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use= of the addressee only. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of= the message and delete it from your system. This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments at your own risk. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and do not represent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated otherwise. **************************************************************************= **************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 **************************************************************************= **************************************** For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use= of the addressee only. If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of= the message and delete it from your system. This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments at your own risk. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and do not represent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated otherwise. **************************************************************************= **************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 --00032555971e5f9c4504806ffe4f Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable People may be interested in the reply from Rod Wilkinson at OFCOM received= today. I asked him what OFCOM's view would be.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rod Wilkinson <Rod.Wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk> Date: 25 February 2010 15:20
Subject: RE: Special Permits for Amateur= Radio Operation below 9kHz?
To: Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com>


Hello Roger,

Well, quicker than= I thought we=92d be I have some info for you regarding the possibility of= operating on 9kHz.

Apparently Ofcoms= =92 Spectrum Management Team were approached back in 2006 by Colin Thomas= G3PSM in his role as RSGB Spectrum Director. We understood at that time= there was some interest in 9kHz, especially from Andy Talbot, G4JNT. However nothin= g came of it on that occasion.

That has though al= lowed a head start this time and my colleagues in the Spectrum Team see no= reason why Amateur operation/experimentation can not take place on 9kHz.= They state that ITU Radio Regs indicat= e that there is no allocation for frequencies below 9 kHz. However in the= UK, a licence would be required as there is no lower frequency limit for= wireless telegraphy under the WT Act 2006. This would be in the form of a Notice of Variation for an existing licens= ee and will be awarded much on the same lines as for operating on 501-504k= Hz. Also any operation will be subject to a non interference basis to other= active facilities and systems using that part of the spectrum. We will ne= ed to revisit the likes of the Met Office who were approached during the= original enquires to confirm that they remain content with the agreed arrangements.=A0 All this, will of course,= need to be done prior to the NoV being granted.

So it does seem a= possibility and if you and any others wish to proceed please complete an= application from for a Special Research Permit available at:

www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/class= es/amateur/applications/ofw306.pdf

Please provide as= much detail as possible and send it to me and I will liaise with appropri= ate colleagues.

I hope that helps.=

Vy 73

Rod

Ro= d Wilkinson

OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio

020 7783 4488 (direct line)

Ro= d.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk

=A0

Riverside House

2a Southwark Bridge Road

London SE1 9HA

020 7981 3000

www.ofcom.org.uk<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

Have you changed yo= ur address recently?

Update your details on= the Of= com Am= ateur and Ships= Licensing S= ervice

=A0=

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/

=A0=

=A0

=A0

=A0=A0

= From: Roger Lap= thorn [mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com]
Sent: 23 February 2010 10:33 AM
To: Rod Wilkinson
Subject: Re: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz= ?

=A0

Many thanks Rod.
I fully understand, and would expect, some delay in any response from OFCO= M regarding operation below 9kHz.

73s
Roger G3XBM

On 23 February 2010 08:23, Rod Wilkinson <Rod.Wilkinson@of= com.org.uk> wrote:

Hello Roger,

=A0

Many thanks for your very interesting mail.

=A0

To ensure that I obtain the correct answer regarding operating bel= ow 9kHz I will need to take advice from Ofcoms=92 spectrum management team and possibly the lawyers too.

=A0

So please accept this as a holding reply and I will get back to yo= u as soon as possible. =A0But be aware please that it may run into weeks rather than days.

=A0

Vy 73

=A0

Rod

PS =A0sincere congratulations on exceed the 1000km mark on 500kHz!=

=A0

Ro= d Wilkinson

OLC Senior Associate, Amateur Radio

020 7783 4488 (direct line)

Ro= d.wilkinson@ofcom.org.uk

=A0

Riverside House

2a Southwark Bridge Road

London SE1 9HA

020 7981 3000

www.ofcom.org.uk<= /span>

=A0<= /span>

Have you changed yo= ur address recently?

Update your details on= the Of= com Licensing S= ervice

=A0=

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing/olc/

=A0=

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

= From: Roger Lap= thorn [mailto:rogerlapthorn@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 February 2010 10:43 PM
To: Rod Wilkinson
Subject: Special Permits for Amateur Radio Operation below 9kHz?

=A0

Dear Rod,

On the RSGB's LF reflector, there has been some discussion in the last= few days about experimentation at frequencies below 9kHz. Many years ago= (around 1970) I held a couple of Test and Development licences (G9BGU and= G9BIB) for such experiments and I wrote up the results in Radio Communications magazine in 1975. It's a fasci= nating part of the spectrum to explore.

In some countries the approval authorities have simply said that below 9kH= z is not allocated by the ITU and therefore they have no issues with amate= urs operating experimentally in this part of the spectrum. As far as I am= aware, the only use for frequencies below 9kHz is for sferic monitoring, VLF emissions research (whistler rec= eption, etc), slow data rate signalling to submerged submarines (although= I believe this has now been replaced by other methods) and some slow data= rate FSK modulation of the mains power grid system. I cannot imagine amateur operation being a credible interfer= ence threat to any of these.

At such frequencies, any "antenna" erected by a radio amateur wo= uld, in a traditional sense, would be incredibly inefficient and far field= radiation immeasurably low. Therefore communication would, for all intent= s and purposes, only be possible by conduction currents through earth or sea (so called "earth mode") or induc= tion and not by radiation in a true radio sense. Attenuation rates are the= refore much higher and potential range very limited. I think some in the= amateur radio community are interested in experimenting with very weak signal modes to "push the envelope" on range at= these basement frequencies. There is no doubt that modes like QRSS30, QRS= S60 or WSPR would allow greater ranges to be spanned than traditional modu= lation modes like normal speed CW, albeit not that far even so (kilometres at best rather than hundreds of kilometres).=

So, I wonder what OFCOM's view would be. Would a permit be needed at= all? If yes, would OFCOM issue Special Research Permits (NoVs) on a case-= by-case basis as at 500kHz?=A0

Kind regards

Roger Lapthorn=A0 G3XBM=A0 (500kHz NoV holder)

--
http://g3xbm-= qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.u= k
http://www= .youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088


****************************= **************************************************************************= ************
For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk

This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use= of the addressee only.

If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of= the message and delete it from your system.

This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments= at your own risk.

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and= do not represent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated= otherwise.
**************************************************************************= ****************************************

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________




--

http://g3xbm-= qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.u= k
http://www= .youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088


***************************= **************************************************************************= *************
For more information visit www.ofcom.org.uk

This email (and any attachments) is confidential and intended for the use= of the addressee only.

If you have received this email in error please notify the originator of= the message and delete it from your system.

This email has been scanned for viruses. However, you open any attachments= at your own risk.

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and= do not represent the views or opinions of Ofcom unless expressly stated= otherwise.
**************************************************************************= ****************************************
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________



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http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088
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