Return-Path: Received: from mtain-de10.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-de10.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.64.210]) by air-dc08.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINDC084-86a64b82911e326; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:13:50 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-de10.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 6D3CB380000F4; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NjZ1L-00014h-Oe for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:12:23 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NjZ1L-00014Y-5P for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:12:23 +0000 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NjZ1G-0001no-0I for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:12:23 +0000 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so1675079bwz.4 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:12:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ec+EacQMnBuxSyR4mOP7vbLq+iqQfa58feiwVRBa2bc=; b=a1oSDdowqmNF7aBkED34SSPgvJfKSRLmnjru9pGyxs7OoQsFxQ6SOMDjOKls7UmPaS pL0V0j4Ig+UHR7pIrQq9bbpbZmeGFdWvpZ3Ql4GJXVpX7qVj3wdY3K7qWZfBxCzPKJTb sC699XMwXKkL+33+kObCeKElVRpvp/TN3UWj0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=lA6C+qT4ad6GkyGTjIcuWrDGSD0F8accD7g3PpnRafGmnc20Rnj3nYCUJs7pXMa5Ec UR2mRxf/Xbk9T3I/4EVEpGd7OmYEO0W7Pe2+q5YDi5XGbAnSxbVeU662HapkfRh/2iM8 0dKoaSln9lLCOPq65+GCtiSQXysLwBaWwej0Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.2.206 with SMTP id 14mr4404508bkk.189.1266847912629; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:11:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9afca2641002220203x1671635et5ec5b31b691fc46e@mail.gmail.com> References: <32098189.1842344.1266827344324.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb080> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B04@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> <9afca2641002220203x1671635et5ec5b31b691fc46e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:11:52 +0000 Message-ID: <9afca2641002220611q66b23d86h61ad2ab136149d6c@mail.gmail.com> From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c179ed116bd0480310368 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-m240.2 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d40d24b82911c5c67 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --0015174c179ed116bd0480310368 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was NATO AGARD papers (not AGAARD) that I was referring to. Here are some other useful references to ULF/VLF system design and practicalities: < http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=3DgetRecord&metadataPrefix=3Dhtml&identi= fier=3DAD0640319 > < http://www.search.com/reference/Ultra_low_frequency#Earth_Mode_Communicati= ons > 73s Roger G3XBM On 22 February 2010 10:03, Roger Lapthorn wrote: > At this frequency, widely spaced, grounded electrode pairs are probably= the > best "antenna". There are references to how these work in the literatur= e > (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the 1960s, available on the interne= t I > believe) and on one of the German ham sites (DK8KW) - see > http://www.qru.de/#vlf . > > Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair aim with modern signal > processing technology and reasonable (amateur levels) available power. > Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to submarines at 76Hz (yes > Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas stretching for 100s of kms. > > 73s > Roger G3XBM > > > > 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer > > Hello Horst, >> >> That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some motivated OMs= in >> the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting field to test. >> >> Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna configurations for that >> range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an antenna tower= . >> There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in series and in parallel= . You >> do not need to have that area beside your house. Nobody will see the wi= re >> and nobody will care about it. >> Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted in some tree= s >> on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and also 160m. The lo= op >> has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. Perfect matching from= 160m >> to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even tried matching on 2200m without= a >> problem but with bad ODX results, of course. But if one would try 2x 10= *100m >> on VLF, the ODX would be interesting... >> >> JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i think ;-) >> >> What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some commercial VL= F >> stations in that range? Are there some? >> >> 73, Stefan >> >> PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation ;-) >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker >> Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 >> An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org >> Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS >> >> >> >> Hallo Stefan, >> >> there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in DL the range >> <9kHz is free. >> >> I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a while I got= a >> letter which confirmed that. >> >> So there nothing you've got to do for getting a licence. You do not nee= d >> one. >> >> There is no limitation of technical parameters like bandwith or power. >> >> Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. >> >> My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT >> >> Horst >> ___________________________________________________________ >> NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! >> http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ >> >> >> >> > > > -- > > http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ > http://www.g3xbm.co.uk > http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM > G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 > --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 --0015174c179ed116bd0480310368 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was NATO AGARD papers (not AGAARD) that I was referring to.

Here= are some other useful references to ULF/VLF system design and practicalit= ies:

<http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freea= bs_all.jsp?reload=3Dtrue&arnumber=3D1138037>
<http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&= amp;verb=3DgetRecord&metadataPrefix=3Dhtml&identifier=3DAD0640319<= /a>>
<http://www.search.com/reference/Ultra_low_f= requency#Earth_Mode_Communications>

73s
Roger G3XBM

On 22 February 20= 10 10:03, Roger Lapthorn <rogerlapthorn@gmail.com> wrote:
At this frequency, widely spaced,=A0grounded electrode pairs are prob= ably the best "antenna".=A0 There are references to how these wo= rk in the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the 1960s, avail= able on the internet I believe) and on one of the German ham sites (DK8KW)= - see http://www.qru= .de/#vlf=A0.
=A0
Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair aim with modern= signal processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur levels) available= power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to submarines at 76Hz= (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas stretching for 100s of= kms.
=A0
73s
Roger G3XBM


=A0
2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer &l= t;schaef= er@hst.tu-darmstadt.de>
Hello Horst,
That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some motivated= OMs in the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting field to= test.

Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna configurations for tha= t range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an antenna tower.= There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in series and in parallel.= You do not need to have that area beside your house. Nobody will see the= wire and nobody will care about it.
Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted in some trees= on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and also 160m. The loop= has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. Perfect matching from 160= m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even tried matching on 2200m without= a problem but with bad ODX results, of course. But if one would try 2x 10= *100m on VLF, the ODX would be interesting...

JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i think ;-)
<= br>What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some commercial VL= F stations in that range? Are there some?

73, Stefan

PS: One= can be sure that there will never be SSB operation ;-)

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@bl= acksheep.org im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker
Gesendet: Mo 22.0= 2.2010 09:29
Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing= on 8.79 kHz in QRSS



Hallo Stefan,

there was a notice in Funkamateur 12= /05, S. 1287, that in DL the range <9kHz is free.

I could not be= lieve that so I asked the BNetzA and after a while I got a letter which co= nfirmed that.

So there nothing you've got to do for getting a licence. You do no= t need one.

There is no limitation of technical parameters like ban= dwith or power.

Hard to believe in german, but obviously true.

My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT

Horst
____________________________= _______________________________
NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen!
http://produkte.web.de/go/02/=






--

http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www= .youtube.com/user/G3XBM
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088



--

http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088
--0015174c179ed116bd0480310368--