Return-Path: Received: from mtain-me07.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-me07.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.143]) by air-mb06.mail.aol.com (v127_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILINMB062-a6ff4b8256db2df; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:05:15 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [193.82.116.20]) by mtain-me07.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E5AC738000091; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1NjV90-0000GY-JN for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:04:02 +0000 Received: from [193.82.116.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1NjV90-0000GP-1I for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:04:02 +0000 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NjV8w-0008O9-9a for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:04:02 +0000 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so1503570bwz.4 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 02:03:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=2A8Ch3zSDYFB5YxfRz3Z6acGL/yL34oFificXN/RHo4=; b=FUSFsqAR3Yj3ohhj8wIIYlIWMdIuHVmHzJQPVCBR/iwsNNc1zPphgzRRi80m1ziwRM eusi7NEeQmSqHgeUzJwWaegrw+n2eDUCPj3fcPuAvdLqdP8B8VxdZ+/TWnufjFiKSdtj jj/p+MsTUArtBkvDf92vLF8CG3umRyyzBbFNo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ZKuhrK4MAfGb8Y6oC9NSDpDuHK5CmRnnZMM5J/SGsTwarMF/kLaY8RGBn06Qj8oepW n09mDMvr9GQErK+T967LZl83fQ08KGgTE5AnDUg0gxpZ5ZuN8BUE789M2nytTOmgI/+c zGP2Ly/knhMARtqtvZFXmYIhBCqzAxVlxDvbM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.15.132 with SMTP id k4mr537549bka.174.1266833031374; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 02:03:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B04@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <32098189.1842344.1266827344324.JavaMail.fmail@mwmweb080> <38A51B74B884D74083D7950AD0DD85E82A1B04@File-Server-HST.hst.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: <9afca2641002220203x1671635et5ec5b31b691fc46e@mail.gmail.com> From: Roger Lapthorn To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org DomainKey-Status: good (testing) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001 Subject: Re: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0003255550ced329a904802d8c37 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d243.1 ; domain : gmail.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d608f4b8256d96f03 X-AOL-IP: 193.82.116.20 X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) --0003255550ced329a904802d8c37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At this frequency, widely spaced, grounded electrode pairs are probably th= e best "antenna". There are references to how these work in the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the 1960s, available on the internet= I believe) and on one of the German ham sites (DK8KW) - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf . Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair aim with modern signal processing technology and reasonable (amateur levels) available power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to submarines at 76Hz (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas stretching for 100s of kms. 73s Roger G3XBM 2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer > Hello Horst, > > That sounds really nice. If it would be easy to find some motivated OMs= in > the near field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting field to test. > > Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna configurations for that > range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an antenna tower. > There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in series and in parallel.= You > do not need to have that area beside your house. Nobody will see the wir= e > and nobody will care about it. > Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted in some trees= on > my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and also 160m. The loop= has > 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. Perfect matching from 160m= to > 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even tried matching on 2200m without a > problem but with bad ODX results, of course. But if one would try 2x 10*= 100m > on VLF, the ODX would be interesting... > > JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i think ;-) > > What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some commercial VLF > stations in that range? Are there some? > > 73, Stefan > > PS: One can be sure that there will never be SSB operation ;-) > > ________________________________ > > Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker > Gesendet: Mo 22.02.2010 09:29 > An: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org > Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.79 kHz in QRSS > > > > Hallo Stefan, > > there was a notice in Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in DL the range > <9kHz is free. > > I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a while I got= a > letter which confirmed that. > > So there nothing you've got to do for getting a licence. You do not need > one. > > There is no limitation of technical parameters like bandwith or power. > > Hard to believe in german, but obviously true. > > My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT > > Horst > ___________________________________________________________ > NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen! > http://produkte.web.de/go/02/ > > > > --=20 http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot.com/ http://www.g3xbm.co.uk http://www.youtube.com/user/G3XBM G3XBM GQRP 1678 ISWL G11088 --0003255550ced329a904802d8c37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At this frequency, widely spaced,=A0grounded electrode pairs are prob= ably the best "antenna".=A0 There are references to how these wo= rk in the literature (for example NATO AGAARD papers from the 1960s, avail= able on the internet I believe) and on one of the German ham sites (DK8KW)= - see http://www.qru.de/#vlf=A0.
=A0
Don't expect great ranges: up to 10kms is a fair aim with modern= signal processing=A0technology and reasonable (amateur levels) available= power. Project Sanguine achieved worldwide coverage to submarines at 76Hz= (yes Hertz!) but used enormous power and antennas stretching for 100s of= kms.
=A0
73s
Roger G3XBM


=A0
2010/2/22 Stefan Sch=E4fer &l= t;schaefer@hst.tu-darmstad= t.de>
Hello Horst,

That sound= s really nice. If it would be easy to find some motivated OMs in the near= field (31km) ;-), that would be an interesting field to test.

Yesterday i have thought about possible antenna configurations for tha= t range and got the idea that one could use a forrest as an antenna tower.= There, you could hang up 100s meters of wire, in series and in parallel.= You do not need to have that area beside your house. Nobody will see the= wire and nobody will care about it.
Since summer 2007 i have a horizontal loop antenna mounted in some trees= on my hill with excellent results on all HF bands and also 160m. The loop= has 130m and is mounted up to 12m above ground. Perfect matching from 160= m to 10m with my symmetric tuner. I even tried matching on 2200m without= a problem but with bad ODX results, of course. But if one would try 2x 10= *100m on VLF, the ODX would be interesting...

JO30OT is abt 160km from JN49IS and thus a little far i think ;-)
<= br>What is your RX antenna and have you already catched some commercial VL= F stations in that range? Are there some?

73, Stefan

PS: One= can be sure that there will never be SSB operation ;-)

________________________________

Von: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksh= eep.org im Auftrag von Horst St=F6cker
Gesendet: Mo 22.02.201= 0 09:29
An: rsgb= _lf_group@blacksheep.org
Betreff: RE: LF: AW: Beaconing on 8.= 79 kHz in QRSS



Hallo Stefan,

there was a notice in= Funkamateur 12/05, S. 1287, that in DL the range <9kHz is free.
I could not believe that so I asked the BNetzA and after a while I got a= letter which confirmed that.

So there nothing you've got to do for getting a licence. You do no= t need one.

There is no limitation of technical parameters like ban= dwith or power.

Hard to believe in german, but obviously true.

My QTH is Siegburg JO30OT

Horst
____________________________= _______________________________
NEU: Mit WEB.DE DSL =FCber 1000,- =BF sparen!
http://produkte.web.de/go/02/=






--
http://g3xbm-qrp.blogspot= .com/
http://www.g3xbm.co.uk=
http://www.youtube.com/u= ser/G3XBM
G3XBM =A0 =A0GQRP 1678 =A0 =A0 =A0ISWL G11088
--0003255550ced329a904802d8c37--