From: KKorn42@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:20:10 -0400 (EDT)
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 Content preview:  Dear All, do you remember? We wrote: âas a first proposal
    for discussion we present a "planâ. The key words were: âfirstâ, âproposalâ
    and ââplanââ (in quotation marks!). We continued to emphasize again:
    âit is a first basis and proposalâ and â those who have an interest
    in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to agree, discuss
   or provide better ideasâ. [...] 
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Subject: LF: Re: 630m Band Plan
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=20
Dear All, do you remember?=20

We wrote: =E2=80=9Cas a first proposal for discussion we present a "plan=E2=
=80=9D. The =20
key words were: =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cproposal=E2=80=9D and =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=9Dplan=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D (in quotation marks!).
We  continued to emphasize again: =E2=80=9Cit is a first basis and proposal=
=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C
those who  have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are=
=20
invited to  agree, discuss or provide better ideas=E2=80=9D.

We got 13 replies and we would like to summarize what we learned.

- We never wanted to =E2=80=9Cimpose upon the rest of the world=E2=80=9D ou=
r ideas. =20
Webster explaines: to impose =E2=80=93 to establish or apply as compulsory.=
 As stated =20
above, it was meant as an idea, a proposal. Maybe our use of the word =E2=
=80=9Cplan=E2=80=9D =20
(although in q.m.) was feared as an insinuation to a rigid enforcement.=20
Never  our idea!

- =E2=80=9CLet=E2=80=99s wait and then decide=E2=80=9D. Do you remember tha=
t there was already  an=20
open question whether or not there is a plan to follow. In the WSPR forum=
=20
the  same question was asked by a ham from UK. Our idea was: let us discuss=
=20
now, so  we have a basis / proposal for the times when (hopefully) many=20
countries are  allowed to join. And who is going to =E2=80=9Cdecide=E2=80=
=9D? Upon what basis?=20
And when?

-  =E2=80=9CI remember that dividing regular CW and QRSS/digital modes in  =
the old=20
days on 136 kHz had helped to coexist peacefully for over a decade now.=E2=
=80=9D =20
Obviously it is good practice to think about where on the band what mode is=
 =20
practised. On all HF bands CW has no restrictions, but it is practised in t=
he=20
 lower portion. So why not follow that habit here?

- =E2=80=9Ccalling frequency / frequencies=E2=80=9D was the request of a ve=
ry active  ham.=20
 =E2=80=9CSo it is important to have some 100 Hz of free spectrum arround a=
 CW =20
calling frequency=E2=80=9D; reason: because CW filters may be not narrow en=
ough.

- =E2=80=9Cgood idea to have narrow guard bands around existing aeronautica=
l =20
beacons=E2=80=9D: it is trivial, that other regions in the world will proba=
bly need =20
different such guards. Just to clarify: a pilot will tune to the frequ (in =
kHz, =20
no fractions) of a NDB and expects that the relevant Instrument will show=
=20
him  the direction to that NDB relative to his AC. He will listen to the ID=
=20
just to  make sure. Hopefully e.g. a QRSS Station on top will not disturb t=
he=20
instrument?  Most probably our power restrictions will show that this=20
safeguard unnecessary;  we introduced it as an additional good will act. ND=
Bs are=20
a dying species.

- =E2=80=9C(I am a) strong promoter of the narrow QRSS/DFCW 60 slots for =
=20
intercontinental work ... and reasonably spaced from subbands with local  s=
ignals=E2=80=9D=20
this calls for some sort of regulation within the community.

- =E2=80=9CI intend to work primarily CW ... I do not intend to use UNATTEN=
DED =20
BROADCAST/BEACON MODES=E2=80=9D. OK, fine, but this is a personal view and =
preference =20
and does not help any further. As we wrote: =E2=80=9Cthose who have an inte=
rest in =20
operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to agree, discuss or=20
provide  better ideas=E2=80=9D.

- =E2=80=9CBeacons within the IF filter bandwidth of many analog receivers =
 around=20
472.5 kHz, ... - please don't. Also consider that, at the moment, the =20
"lower end" of the band is the most valuable part of it. ...IMHO, beacons t=
here =20
are evil.=E2=80=9D This implies, that a certain portion of the band is =E2=
=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D and=20
 should be used only for a certain type of operation. Others, please go=20
somewhere  else and esp. beacons are regarded as =E2=80=9Cunwelcome=E2=80=
=9D. Hams are a=20
multifaced  community, we can not hinder someone from establishing a (e.g. =
WSPR) =E2=80=9C
beacon=E2=80=9D.  They can not be compared with the existing NDBs. So a mut=
ual=20
agreement has to be  reached in the future (see above: =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=
=9D & =E2=80=9Cproposal=E2=80=9D!).
=E2=80=9CLet's  coordinate things here, and on "the other" group as necessa=
ry. We=20
need a lot of  flexibility on MF=E2=80=9D Fine!.
Gentlemen: =E2=80=9CSwitch black box Beacon on then go away  for the day or=
 go to=20
bed and check later on the Internet database to see if  Black box has made =
it=20
to Kalahatungutee. ... Not forgetting to click on 'auto  QSO' and 'upload=
=20
QSL' buttons.=E2=80=9D remarks like that do not help in any way and are  hu=
miliating=20
to others.

- =E2=80=9C... if you understand =E2=80=98band plan=E2=80=99 as a useful hi=
nt for newcomers  (RX-=20
and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to call  e.g. in CW or =20
where to set the =E2=80=98dial=E2=80=99 for WSPR decoding, then i cannot fi=
nd something bad on =20
it.=E2=80=9D Correct, our idea!
=E2=80=9CIf we start to collect our experiences why it is  useful to use th=
at QRG=20
for that mode, then why not. ... But many countries,  experiences and time=
=20
should form this plan, not only the German amateurs, ....  That means,=20
probably the plan will form itself!=E2=80=9D This hopefully will happen, bu=
t  we thought,=20
that discussed on a proposal would be a better starting. And  remember: the=
=20
question re such a proposal already exists.

- =E2=80=9CAbout QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which is close t=
o  the=20
carrier of  a NDB: First, there will be no CW station close to the  carrier=
.=20
Second, the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence of the NBD =20
carrier.=E2=80=9D Hopefully it is not quite the reverse.

- =E2=80=9CConcentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the band is not=
 bad =20
... the active stations will define where the center or "dial" frequency of=
 =20
which mode will be.=E2=80=9D Exactly, but now they are sitting on top of ea=
ch  other.

- =E2=80=9CDial frequency means nothing for those of us in CW rx mode=E2=80=
=9D. Correct =20
(personal statement) but does not help in any way for others: =E2=80=9CMode=
rn data=20
modes  are ... frequency  agile ... so the rx end has to know where to set =
the=20
rx  dial to intercept them.=E2=80=9D Which leads to some sort of mutual=20
understanding /  rules.=20
And further: =E2=80=9CMany of the transmissions will be under the noise lev=
el  ...=20
and require a defined slot to function=E2=80=9D.

End of inputs.

Please think about the remarks of your fellow hams and their approach  re.=
=20
a =E2=80=9Cband plan=E2=80=9D; and think about the future of this special b=
and, that =20
hopefully will see many more countries participating.
And be prepared, that  without some generally accepted rules to follow, it=
=20
will be more complicated to  enjoy the allocated 7kHz.
=20
73
de
Walter, Roland, Klaus


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<DIV>
<DIV>Dear All, do you remember? </DIV>
<DIV><BR>We wrote: =E2=80=9Cas a first proposal for discussion we present a=
 "plan=E2=80=9D. The=20
key words were: =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cproposal=E2=80=9D and =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=9Dplan=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D (in quotation marks!).<BR>We=20
continued to emphasize again: =E2=80=9Cit is a first basis and proposal=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cthose who=20
have an interest in operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to=
=20
agree, discuss or provide better ideas=E2=80=9D.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>We got 13 replies and we would like to summarize what we learned.<=
/DIV>
<DIV><BR>- We never wanted to =E2=80=9Cimpose upon the rest of the world=E2=
=80=9D our ideas.=20
Webster explaines: to impose =E2=80=93 to establish or apply as compulsory.=
 As stated=20
above, it was meant as an idea, a proposal. Maybe our use of the word =E2=
=80=9Cplan=E2=80=9D=20
(although in q.m.) was feared as an insinuation to a rigid enforcement. Nev=
er=20
our idea!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9CLet=E2=80=99s wait and then decide=E2=80=9D. Do you rem=
ember that there was already=20
an open question whether or not there is a plan to follow. In the WSPR foru=
m the=20
same question was asked by a ham from UK. Our idea was: let us discuss now,=
 so=20
we have a basis / proposal for the times when (hopefully) many countries ar=
e=20
allowed to join. And who is going to =E2=80=9Cdecide=E2=80=9D? Upon what ba=
sis? And when?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>-&nbsp; =E2=80=9CI remember that dividing regular CW and QRSS/digi=
tal modes in=20
the old days on 136 kHz had helped to coexist peacefully for over a decade =
now.=E2=80=9D=20
Obviously it is good practice to think about where on the band what mode is=
=20
practised. On all HF bands CW has no restrictions, but it is practised in t=
he=20
lower portion. So why not follow that habit here?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9Ccalling frequency / frequencies=E2=80=9D was the reques=
t of a very active=20
ham.&nbsp; =E2=80=9CSo it is important to have some 100 Hz of free spectrum=
 arround a CW=20
calling frequency=E2=80=9D; reason: because CW filters may be not narrow en=
ough.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9Cgood idea to have narrow guard bands around existing ae=
ronautical=20
beacons=E2=80=9D: it is trivial, that other regions in the world will proba=
bly need=20
different such guards. Just to clarify: a pilot will tune to the frequ (in =
kHz,=20
no fractions) of a NDB and expects that the relevant Instrument will show h=
im=20
the direction to that NDB relative to his AC. He will listen to the ID just=
 to=20
make sure. Hopefully e.g. a QRSS Station on top will not disturb the instru=
ment?=20
Most probably our power restrictions will show that this safeguard unnecess=
ary;=20
we introduced it as an additional good will act. NDBs are a dying species.<=
/DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9C(I am a) strong promoter of the narrow QRSS/DFCW 60 slo=
ts for=20
intercontinental work ... and reasonably spaced from subbands with local=20
signals=E2=80=9D this calls for some sort of regulation within the communit=
y.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9CI intend to work primarily CW ... I do not intend to us=
e UNATTENDED=20
BROADCAST/BEACON MODES=E2=80=9D. OK, fine, but this is a personal view and =
preference=20
and does not help any further. As we wrote: =E2=80=9Cthose who have an inte=
rest in=20
operation between 472kHz and 479kHz ... are invited to agree, discuss or pr=
ovide=20
better ideas=E2=80=9D.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9CBeacons within the IF filter bandwidth of many analog r=
eceivers=20
around 472.5 kHz, ... - please don't. Also consider that, at the moment, th=
e=20
"lower end" of the band is the most valuable part of it. ...IMHO, beacons t=
here=20
are evil.=E2=80=9D This implies, that a certain portion of the band is =E2=
=80=9Cbetter=E2=80=9D and=20
should be used only for a certain type of operation. Others, please go some=
where=20
else and esp. beacons are regarded as =E2=80=9Cunwelcome=E2=80=9D. Hams are=
 a multifaced=20
community, we can not hinder someone from establishing a (e.g. WSPR) =E2=80=
=9Cbeacon=E2=80=9D.=20
They can not be compared with the existing NDBs. So a mutual agreement has =
to be=20
reached in the future (see above: =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D &amp; =E2=80=9Cpr=
oposal=E2=80=9D!).<BR>=E2=80=9CLet's=20
coordinate things here, and on "the other" group as necessary. We need a lo=
t of=20
flexibility on MF=E2=80=9D Fine!.<BR>Gentlemen: =E2=80=9CSwitch black box B=
eacon on then go away=20
for the day or go to bed and check later on the Internet database to see if=
=20
Black box has made it to Kalahatungutee. ... Not forgetting to click on 'au=
to=20
QSO' and 'upload QSL' buttons.=E2=80=9D remarks like that do not help in an=
y way and are=20
humiliating to others.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9C... if you understand =E2=80=98band plan=E2=80=99 as a =
useful hint for newcomers=20
(RX- and TXwise) where it may be useful to listen or to call&nbsp; e.g. in =
CW or=20
where to set the =E2=80=98dial=E2=80=99 for WSPR decoding, then i cannot fi=
nd something bad on=20
it.=E2=80=9D Correct, our idea!<BR>=E2=80=9CIf we start to collect our expe=
riences why it is=20
useful to use that QRG for that mode, then why not. ... But many countries,=
=20
experiences and time should form this plan, not only the German amateurs, .=
...=20
That means, probably the plan will form itself!=E2=80=9D This hopefully wil=
l happen, but=20
we thought, that discussed on a proposal would be a better starting. And=20
remember: the question re such a proposal already exists.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9CAbout QRSS/DFCW i think one can use a frequency which i=
s close to=20
the carrier of&nbsp; a NDB: First, there will be no CW station close to the=
=20
carrier. Second, the QRSS/DFCW signal is not affected by the presence of th=
e NBD=20
carrier.=E2=80=9D Hopefully it is not quite the reverse.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9CConcentrating the digimodes on the upper part of the ba=
nd is not bad=20
... the active stations will define where the center or "dial" frequency of=
=20
which mode will be.=E2=80=9D Exactly, but now they are sitting on top of ea=
ch=20
other.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>- =E2=80=9CDial frequency means nothing for those of us in CW rx m=
ode=E2=80=9D. Correct=20
(personal statement) but does not help in any way for others: =E2=80=9CMode=
rn data modes=20
are ... frequency&nbsp; agile ... so the rx end has to know where to set th=
e rx=20
dial to intercept them.=E2=80=9D Which leads to some sort of mutual underst=
anding /=20
rules. <BR>And further: =E2=80=9CMany of the transmissions will be under th=
e noise level=20
... and require a defined slot to function=E2=80=9D.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>End of inputs.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Please think about the remarks of your fellow hams and their appro=
ach=20
re. a =E2=80=9Cband plan=E2=80=9D; and think about the future of this speci=
al band, that=20
hopefully will see many more countries participating.<BR>And be prepared, t=
hat=20
without some generally accepted rules to follow, it will be more complicate=
d to=20
enjoy the allocated 7kHz.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>73</DIV>
<DIV>de</DIV>
<DIV>Walter, Roland, Klaus<BR></DIV></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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