Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by klubnl.pl (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id wBB0AGva008855 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 01:10:27 +0100 Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1gWVUG-0006hY-SQ for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 00:01:20 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1gWVQf-0006hA-D6 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:57:37 +0000 Received: from sonic302-4.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.135.43]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.91_59-0488984) (envelope-from ) id 1gWVQW-0007J6-Uz for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:57:30 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1544486246; bh=ZaRXzbLa+yjyfXCl+aUOGJfpgKTlNXtdM7FEn5ylzv8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=s72EsIWws/k7l78NE8Tw6CKO5YTlThn7arMNGW3AEeTgd+iqmP1PaRKng4INVhWv292oUumzjSO3E4dGNKDHg7SXVOnr2Ka19eFNT5T2dQ8lb2+BwkCXSFQj6SLq+RfiqjX7j+0KgsIl/KU7atfV4kfPP/1OEbOz7Hzd+SDHFY2YoEWYkEUlScVcm6N49IbzDF+Zg1JeDkQLCKiXO8Jj2tYGew/2VnPfr3HIzuo0su8e12e2VHPJPXecJstopAcB8wzmwwoWDwQv0Ti+57F8GVh/B9KtEvRdOhnzI9PkP8E9Ur534WZomOC9mZMWFEpipQhyLrzfGzUYpKHehr1KOQ== X-YMail-OSG: Hod2IjgVM1nrX7JxpGCkzc5TAJHthm_HDycS8VPsVl7Y2zcStIwLLPMGx_RiJKx 1oawIqssZa1dukvmv6BzAyJUz_2jPBJIulWzJcwJ96bgsJdL1Z02RM97nDKEakZe0.vYZJTbMbwy EsTzE_PNODzd4oAzrpc6TbccgG6Dlcpb9dO7tQt5y26p9cHUZ80RH5wYk2M9xjM0pOchyvOPE3LP GZqC_sHal_Is5rN5NXmI3xOL2fas4sjJ9OmXY_lAU4appLWwFhh.4zyaArWVsj0wBOwRgVW58qeh 5iI2TwlOBggpb05jykLy5A1tHVGoUxmDhvLA.hHnpySom6dVYQA12nOzILInXA3bfaCr1HrksaZO O6mftrn2oLag5uY6Jzu12AsTy3IVQvRKuxPGKVdn.06xfZ_QP0iudgGDoS1iVY4heltOVYLvfAcS wQmbaO7tR4sASA1hxORBKU3Gd0zJa59znyikhp1Z97OBjLo4MzU0CaSNbEkCFw6uiKS5Cdn75pIq NXriG5OqgtV1wCcJVeN8cbZymIIopz8f7vh6B8S_50hwtzPgjA_ysg56wOOMnXf7huNKCU09pXFw _r_RF3Mg0sI9f.WCZ0MwAIrpiYtK.5rmWf9KraJqRP4vi5s5BnFsXFZGG1CaWfRm7PfmP45qy8CT .Hi5r0mbwg14zpIQNZcC68iL6hFJw7ioGWSJHEQhpuanTY1v6K3bfybRan2NQSLSXVUQ4SU4HDYy U5XbcUVWuqKiLkgBGtuOTsLQQDsEFgGVjzKRsfr7mqvL.MpoeH7.I5sGGklqXlwNStH65.G9UOYF fjGRiksZdheA2RAbGe.BbV.9xrs6NWSypFc1HptPAKv_c8mOPf6ezE0__oATyFVOls5pHCdkTaRz AVFYgg2xRHc.LFQVlfaIRIIfK0T3y1p2txtXdhHnfiLv6qeoJ81slfNTnH4Q_1CiDh4RUp5emIsD zHXwDEON74aQ2dKqNgaaW1UQB9LQ- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:57:26 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 23:57:24 +0000 (UTC) From: Markus Vester To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Message-ID: <941104406.2050754.1544486244944@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <941104406.2050754.1544486244944.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.12857 aolwebmail Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; Trident/7.0; Touch; rv:11.0) like Gecko X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Yes for LF I would also recommend the method with signal generator, relay and ebnaut-tx software, it's really not difficult to get started. Instead of the relay, a double balanced diode mixer also w [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [74.6.135.43 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (markusvester[at]aol.com) 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid X-Scan-Signature: 01689d080f7c72ae346b011e9b322bfa Subject: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2050753_948654479.1544486244941" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.2 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false ------=_Part_2050753_948654479.1544486244941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes=C2=A0for LF I would also recommend the method with signal generator, re= lay and ebnaut-tx software, it's really not difficult to get started. Inste= ad of the relay,=C2=A0a double balanced diode mixer also works well, with= =C2=A0the=C2=A0DC-coupled IF port driven directly from=C2=A0RS232. If you h= appen to have a linear PA you could optionally insert a simple=C2=A0C-R=C2= =A0lowpass for shaped keying.=C2=A0The realtime clock of the sending PC sho= uld be=C2=A0steered by NTP, or=C2=A0alternatively using NMEA from an extern= al GPS.=C2=A0 I think that frequency accuracy=C2=A0needs to be=C2=A0much better than=C2= =A05e-8. To keep the phase drift within 30=C2=B0 over half an hour, the fre= quency should ideally be known to better than 46 uHz, or about 3e-10 (0.3 p= pb). Most simple OCXOs cannot hold up to that. When the signal is strong, o= ne can sometimes still=C2=A0obtain a decode by aligning the slope of the sy= mbol phase graph. But=C2=A0this won't work for=C2=A0weak signals, and pokin= g around=C2=A0blindly for a frequency offset that may or may not produce a = decode=C2=A0can be a cumbersome and frustrating affair.=C2=A0The best choic= e is a=C2=A0GPS derived oscillator, or a well calibrated Rubidium source.= =C2=A0 When will we see you? Best 73, Markus (DF6NM) -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung----- Von: Rob Renoud An: rsgb_lf_group Verschickt: Mo, 10. Dez 2018 23:33 Betreff: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut Paul, Chris and EbNaut LF, Stefan makes a good argument for trying what you have for TX. =C2=A0 The HP= -3325A specs show a frequency accuracy of +- 5 EE-8 and stability (option 0= 01) of +- 5 EE-6. =C2=A0The HP-3325A should work ok on 2200m with a message= duration of 28 minutes or less. The 180 phase reversal is easily implemented using a DPDT relay with a 1:1 = transformer connected between the 3325 generator and the amp input. =C2=A0D= rive the relay with the RS-232 RTS or CTS signal from the computer running = ebnaut-tx.exe found on=C2=A0http://abelian.org/ebnaut/=C2=A0such that the r= elay shifts the phasing of the input to the transformer. Time and frequency are important on the decoding end. =C2=A0Try to get them= as accurate as possible on the TX end. For 2200m a good starting message format is: Code: =C2=A08K19ASymbol Period: =C2=A03CRC: 16Characters: 5Duration: =C2=A0= 25:36.00Repeat on the hour and half-hour Announce your beacon and give it a try. =C2=A0Lot=E2=80=99s of LF EbNaut li= steners to let you know if it=E2=80=99s working out... Comments and other suggestions are welcome. 73,Rob - K3RWR On Dec 10, 2018, at 15:58, = wrote: BPSK transitions cause key clicks with non linear transmitters / amplifiers= . As a practical matter ... with the high Q transmitting antennas in use ..= . and that it's unlikely you'll have next door neighbor interested in LF re= ception ... it hasn't been a much of a problem. Jay W1VD ----- Original Message ----- From: "DK7FC" To: Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 11:08 AM Subject: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut Hi Paul, Am 09.12.2018 20:02, schrieb N1BUG: The first thing people want to know is what equipment is required for LF EbNaut and how much is this going to cost? But answers are hard to come by. I could never get an answer as to whether my HP 3325B with high stability option was good enough. The problem is also on the other side. I don't know what a HP3325B is, or, = at least, i don't know the technical details since i don't own one. So i ca= n give no advice how to use it for EbNaut transmitting Also there are different methods and each radio amateur is convinced about = his own design. Some methods may be easier to realise but less precise and less flexible. S= o based on the skills and needs and parts available one will decide for a c= ertain design. Thus it is not so easy to write up 'the' way to go, there are many ways. Fo= r example, there could be a 'how to EbNaut' including Linux components like= ebkey, which will be useless for someone who insists to avoid using Linux.= .. So if you're asking the group, then you will get different advice, from dif= ferent designs. And this will be confusing! So concentrate on the basics an= d then choose your own design. I suggest to start in steps, don't plan to build the perfect system until t= he season is over. Basically all you need is an absolutely stable signal generator and a tool = for inverting the phase and managing the timing. This can be done with Wind= ows and Linux. I think you are one of those who avoid using Linux. So then, you need SpecL= ab to generate the PSK. But step 1 is the stable signal. One method is to use an up-converter and SpecLab to generate EbNaut. SpecLa= b can generate a tone on e.g. 12500 Hz which is then mixed with 125 kHz, so= there is an output at 137.5 kHz. This is how i do it here. I can tell you about other methods but this may lead to confusion already. Maybe there is one step before step 1, call it step 0: You need to decide, = "YES i will now start to transmit EbNaut and i will buy to necessary compon= ents, learn what is necessary to understand, knowing it means effort!" What kind of signal generator do you use now? When I asked about amplifiers for EbNaut I was told linear is a must Do you remember who said that? but now I find people are doing it with nonlinear amplifiers Yes, a linear amplifier is not needed. It is BPSK, the output power is alwa= ys at 100%, which is good :-) 73, Stefan ------=_Part_2050753_948654479.1544486244941 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes for LF I would also recomme= nd the method with signal generator, relay and ebnaut-tx software, it's rea= lly not difficult to get started. Instead of the relay, a double balan= ced diode mixer also works well, with the DC-coupled IF port driv= en directly from RS232. If you happen to have a linear PA you could op= tionally insert a simple C-R lowpass for shaped keying. The = realtime clock of the sending PC should be steered by NTP, or alt= ernatively using NMEA from an external GPS. 

I think that frequency accuracy ne= eds to be much better than 5e-8. To keep the phase drift within 3= 0=C2=B0 over half an hour, the frequency should ideally be known to better = than 46 uHz, or about 3e-10 (0.3 ppb). Most simple OCXOs cannot hold up to = that. When the signal is strong, one can sometimes still obtain a deco= de by aligning the slope of the symbol phase graph. But this won't wor= k for weak signals, and poking around blindly for a frequency off= set that may or may not produce a decode can be a cumbersome and frust= rating affair. The best choice is a GPS derived oscillator, or a = well calibrated Rubidium source. 

When will we see you?

Best 73,
Mar= kus (DF6NM)

--= ---Urspr=C3=BCngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Ro= b Renoud <k3rwr@md.metrocast.net>
An: r= sgb_lf_group <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Verschickt: Mo, 10. Dez 2018 23:33
Betre= ff: Re: LF: LF and VLF EbNaut

P= aul, Chris and EbNaut LF,

Stefan makes a good argu= ment for trying what you have for TX.   The HP-3325A specs show a freq= uency accuracy of +- 5 EE-8 and stability (option 001) of +- 5 EE-6.  = The HP-3325A should work ok on 2200m with a message duration of 28 minutes = or less.

<= /div>
The 180 phase reversal is easily implemen= ted using a DPDT relay with a 1:1 transformer connected between the 3325 ge= nerator and the amp input.  Drive the relay with the RS-232 RTS or CTS= signal from the computer running ebnaut-tx.exe found on http://abelian.org/ebnaut/ such that the relay shifts= the phasing of the input to the transformer.

Time= and frequency are important on the decoding end.  Try to get them as = accurate as possible on the TX end.

For 2200m a go= od starting message format is:

Code:  8K19A<= /div>
Symbol Period:  3
CRC: 16
Characters: 5
Duration:  25:36.00
Repeat on the hour and half-hour

= Announce your beacon and give it a try.  Lot=E2=80=99s of LF EbNaut li= steners to let you know if it=E2=80=99s working out...

Comments and other suggestions are welcome.

= 73,
Rob - K3RWR

=





On = Dec 10, 2018, at 15:58, <jrusgrove@comcast.net> <jrusgrove@comcast.net= > wrote:

BPSK transitions cause key clicks with non li= near transmitters / amplifiers. As a practical matter ... with the high Q t= ransmitting antennas in use ... and that it's unlikely you'll have next doo= r neighbor interested in LF reception ... it hasn't been a much of a proble= m.

Jay W1VD



----- Original Message ----- From: "DK7FC" <= selb= erdenken@posteo.de>
To: <rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2018 1= 1:08 AM
Subject: Re:= LF: LF and VLF EbNaut


Hi Paul,

= Am 09.12.2018 20:02, schrieb N1BUG:
The first thing people want
to know = is what equipment is required for LF EbNaut and how much is
this goi= ng to cost? But answers are hard to come by. I could never
get an a= nswer as to whether my HP 3325B with high stability option
was good= enough.
The problem is also on= the other side. I don't know what a HP3325B is, or, at least, i don't know= the technical details since i don't own one. So i can give no advice how t= o use it for EbNaut transmitting
Also there = are different methods and each radio amateur is convinced about his own des= ign.
Some methods may be easier to realise b= ut less precise and less flexible. So based on the skills and needs and par= ts available one will decide for a certain design.
Thus it is not so easy to write up 'the' way to go, there are many= ways. For example, there could be a 'how to EbNaut' including Linux compon= ents like ebkey, which will be useless for someone who insists to avoid usi= ng Linux...
So if you're asking the group, t= hen you will get different advice, from different designs. And this will be= confusing! So concentrate on the basics and then choose your own design.
I suggest to start in steps, don't plan to bu= ild the perfect system until the season is over.

Basically all you need is an absolutel= y stable signal generator and a tool for inverting the phase and managing t= he timing. This can be done with Windows and Linux.
I think you are one of those who avoid using Linux. So then, you n= eed SpecLab to generate the PSK.
But step 1 = is the stable signal.
One method is to use a= n up-converter and SpecLab to generate EbNaut. SpecLab can generate a tone = on e.g. 12500 Hz which is then mixed with 125 kHz, so there is an output at= 137.5 kHz. This is how i do it here.
=
I can = tell you about other methods but this may lead to confusion already.=
Maybe there is one step before step 1, call it ste= p 0: You need to decide, "YES i will now start to transmit EbNaut and i wil= l buy to necessary components, learn what is necessary to understand, knowi= ng it means effort!"

What kind of signal generator do you use now?

When I asked about amplifiers for EbNaut I was told
linear i= s a must
Do you remember who sa= id that?
but now I find people are doing it with nonlinear
amplifiers
Yes, a linear amplifier is not nee= ded. It is BPSK, the output power is always at 100%, which is good :-)

73, Stefan


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