Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mh06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mh06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.96.218]) by air-db04.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDB042-861e4d5bfd653db; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:37:57 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mh06.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 713D73800087C; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PpkMU-0002Ps-3A for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:36:18 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PpkMT-0002Pj-4L for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:36:17 +0000 Received: from mail.uk.thalesgroup.com ([192.93.164.29] helo=Alfaes01.gwserv.thalesgroup.com) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PpkMR-00028F-1b for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:36:17 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.60,480,1291593600"; d="scan'208,217";a="16629991" Received: from echoes.gwserv.thalesgroup.com (HELO gwserv.thalesgroup.com) ([172.31.141.5]) by Alfaes01.gwserv.thalesgroup.com with ESMTP; 16 Feb 2011 16:35:57 +0000 Received: from ([193.150.182.142]) by echoes01.gwserv.thalesgroup.com with ESMTP id 8BYFQH1.11999370; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:35:54 +0000 Received: by temps153538.tus.uk.thales with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:35:54 -0000 Message-ID: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935D3E@temps153538.tus.uk.thales> From: Reeves Paul To: "'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org'" Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:35:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: autolearn=disabled,HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS=1.166,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CBCDF7.9418CAA0" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=EXCUSE_16,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE,SUBJ_ALL_CAPS autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d60da4d5bfd4f645d X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none ------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCDF7.9418CAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Chris, You are probably right, most amateurs would not have the sort of kit I have available at work, but for home use some very good measuring equipment at LF is certainly available to amateurs on the surplus market, both Mal and myself have Siemens D2155 SLMs, for example (and it not too expensive, less than most rice boxes), and calibration is quite easy - even for antennas - to get very accurate field strength measurements. The problem then comes down to predicting the propagation characteristics - and this IS the problem area, I quite agree. Having dealt with LF propagation in a 'marine' context I'm well aware of the variability of the models! I may have been too hasty in responding to Mal but he does have that effect on people :-) 73 Paul G8GJA .-----Original Message----- From: Chris [mailto:c.ashby435@btinternet.com] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:45 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Hi Paul, I think Mal was quite rightly referring to test equipment available to the professionals as opposed to 'us' amateurs. There was a discussion on here a year or so ago where it was generally agreed that most of our 'estimates' at ERP had quite a large degree of likely error! Vy 73, Chris, G4AYT. ----- Original Message ----- From: Reeves Paul To: 'rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org' Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE Mal, The reference ...'especially by Radio Amateurs' could well be considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I suppose that the only qualified people would be marine radio officers? I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be forthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisations in the future? Paul G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net] Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Toni It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some hundreds of miles away. especially by Radio Amateurs. I have seen figures in the past and after a detailed mathematical analysis the concluded statement was that this could be 6 dB either way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or maybe 4w erp or even worse a lot less. Let them believe what they like hi g3kev ----- Original Message ----- From: HB9ASB To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:08 PM Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE Thanks Rik I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would have around 4W EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 100km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low. Anyway, it shows me again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP. Even Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-) 73 de Toni 2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe < Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be > Hello Toni, group, I measured the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39. Distances to HE3OM (504km) and DCF39 (515km) are almost identical. This might give the US stations a clue what signal strength they can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Tony could use to be copied. 73, Rik ON7YD _____ Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [ owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org ] namens HB9ASB [ hb9asb@gmail.com ] Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44 Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't leave the station running unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sottens are limited by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial before, I have just next Friday night. If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two weeks from stations 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be possible to span 6000km using QRSS10. On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's say with QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or two QSO's. May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and listen on 80m. This would give more stations the opportunity to contact us. However, if there is a station from the East Coast we copy in QRSS10 it would get the priority. What do you think about this approach? 73 de Toni 2011/2/15 James Moritz < james.moritz@btopenworld.com > Dear Toni, LF Group, HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal than most Eu stations, so I guess you have a good chance of being copied in NA on Friday night, unless the propagation is very poor. But as you will have seen from the activity last weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, especially where a single QSO takes hours. If possible, I would suggest transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM between now and Friday, so that North American stations can get a good idea what QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to receive any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also know what the requirement will be in the other direction. Finally, I have usually found reception of US stations is best just before dawn here, so make sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday! Good luck, Cheers, Jim Moritz 73 de M0BMU This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. 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Hi Chris,
 
You are probably right, most amateurs would not have the sort of kit I  have available at work, but for home use some very good measuring equipment at LF is certainly available to amateurs on the surplus market, both Mal and myself have Siemens D2155 SLMs, for example  (and it not too expensive, less than most rice boxes), and calibration is quite easy - even for antennas - to get very accurate field strength measurements. The problem then comes down to predicting the propagation characteristics - and this IS the problem area, I quite agree. Having dealt with LF propagation in a 'marine' context I'm well aware of the variability of the models!
I may have been too hasty in responding to Mal but he does have that effect on people :-)
 
73
Paul     G8GJA
.-----Original Message-----
From: Chris [mailto:c.ashby435@btinternet.com]
Sent: 16 February 2011 15:45
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Hi Paul,
I think Mal was quite rightly referring to test equipment available to the professionals as opposed to 'us' amateurs.
There was a discussion on here a year or so ago where it was generally agreed that most of our 'estimates' at ERP had quite a large degree of likely error!
Vy 73,
Chris, G4AYT.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: LF: TA TONITE

Mal,
 
The reference  ...'especially by Radio Amateurs'  could well be considered offensive and is definitely not borne out by fact. I suppose that the only qualified people would be marine radio officers?
I will not request a retraction - knowing you it would not be forthcoming - but could you be a bit careful with sweeping generalisations in the future?
 
Paul    G8GJA
-----Original Message-----
From: mal hamilton [mailto:g3kevmal@talktalk.net]
Sent: 16 February 2011 15:03
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Toni
It is all Guesswork trying to measure ERP some hundreds of miles away. especially by Radio Amateurs.
I have seen figures in the past and after a detailed mathematical analysis the concluded statement was that this could be 6 dB either way, in other words the erp measured could be 1W erp or maybe 4w erp or even worse a lot less.
Let them believe what they like hi
g3kev
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: HB9ASB
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Thanks Rik
I've read somewhere that DCF39 has 40kW EIRP. So we would have around 4W EIRP. Last week a station measured our field strength, 100km away and came to 0.4WEIRP. This is probably a little bit to low. Anyway, it shows me again, that most amateurs overestimate their ERP. Even Mal has probably not the Watt he claims ;-)
73 de Toni

2011/2/16 Rik Strobbe <Rik.Strobbe@fys.kuleuven.be>
Hello Toni, group,
 
I measured the HE3OM signal 41dB down on DCF39.
Distances to HE3OM (504km) and DCF39 (515km) are almost identical.
This might give the US stations a clue what signal strength they can expect from HE3OM and what QRSS speed Tony could use to be copied.
 
73, Rik  ON7YD
 
 
Van: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] namens HB9ASB [hb9asb@gmail.com]
Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2011 8:44
Aan: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Onderwerp: Re: LF: TA TONITE

Dear Jim, Mal and LF Group

Unfortunately the tower is not nearby my house and I can't leave the station running unattended. And the nights I can spend in Sottens are limited by my health and my wife, hi. So there is no trial before, I have just next Friday night.
If I take a look at the reports we got in the past two weeks from stations 2000-3000km away (always good audible), it should be possible to span 6000km using QRSS10.
On the receiving side, we may be able to see stations let's say with QRSS60. This would mean, that we could make only one or two QSO's. May be it's better to try Crossband: we transmit in QRSS10 and listen on 80m. This would give more stations the opportunity to contact us. However, if there is a station from the East Coast we copy in QRSS10 it would get the priority.
What do you think about this approach?

73 de Toni

2011/2/15 James Moritz <james.moritz@btopenworld.com>
Dear Toni, LF Group,

HE3OM has the advantage of a much stronger TX signal than most Eu stations, so I guess you have a good chance of being copied in NA on Friday night, unless the propagation is very poor. But as you will have seen from the activity last weekend, forward planning is always a good thing, especially where a single QSO takes hours. If possible, I would suggest transmitting some beacon signals from HE3OM between now and Friday, so that North American stations can get a good idea what QRSS speed can be copied from your station. Also, try to receive any W/VE beacons that might be running, so that you also know what the requirement will be in the other direction. Finally, I have usually found reception of US stations is best just before dawn here, so make sure you are not going to be busy on Saturday!

Good luck,

Cheers, Jim Moritz
73 de M0BMU




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Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.



This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system.


Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company.


Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.


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