Return-Path: Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mj03.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id E9E41380000B0; Wed, 6 Mar 2013 14:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1UDK2X-0003e9-BO for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:30:13 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1UDK2V-0003dr-Qy for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:30:11 +0000 Received: from nm3-vm6.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([212.82.99.218]) by relay1.thorcom.net with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.77) (envelope-from ) id 1UDK2P-0008Ur-W6 for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Wed, 06 Mar 2013 19:30:10 +0000 Received: from [212.82.98.45] by nm3.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2013 19:29:44 -0000 Received: from [46.228.39.165] by tm6.bt.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2013 19:29:44 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Mar 2013 19:29:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1362598184; bh=4z9D7J0qAxctKK0nL1pE2ilqp5E5zMs14TOVFi8w9rY=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-Antivirus:X-Antivirus-Status; b=V8WNnT4ZS197eJMx1jC9US9XL1T/dRHPLB8+1BxA8lm42ACFGhVMEF+UkDhPqtZJ9hC7zgoKikm8g6nHu6dIX707JR6sSyFfo9WgcCDu0ijLbnPw775J71wtlUuP4JdP7aG4gYWz6Pdbd3TDeULMGfh5ttkmqTyzXguX6v1gaEc= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 268628.9724.bm@smtp106.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: SNjKskwVM1nxWJ.CsQlj9Ub7JLZRnNw_l5MOSIbfitp7Zbl rHpBiB_57kluIRYda3bRqthDyJaFkSRQeKNQZA_HvDLZTcFbBTZWpLAB3JlK R9yF8uT62sE_LqmVd_I84n1hnncVfKrL7jCj8YmS1hRYvOAbNvTd4NsjV941 2z3wX3lZDRrnnb8WFaMXZwhSCr8NVkgsfhYrHxYAQY7dC1M54qBvGbHJXSqO ifeIZbCCKsKNZmLQtcet29MhsUnq_Hd88dJhp1uMIE1LroRmhtcoxq1LOjUz h39zLFP24fdWxtUQibqs5LXuhlOOIJcl0AsQHcwZqO2HrjaeqXWZiHUlVWfV oDWiMtCrN1NlGSY9cZeNuN.Zc24fBle4aS5PaopmjmPqmscrDeedMuogYkIr ArnNcOTM91RZrlA7S5Thy1mTWkHMUQ_e1b67HFFYRm3UGrVf5zFYvFZ9aiuA D5mhng.C0wg-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fpz.2VeswBBs59bVshRPmMN51lcO2lgFRIvE4XTqE8dRwOxd70E- Received: from gnat (alan.melia@86.171.39.137 with login) by smtp106.bt.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 06 Mar 2013 19:29:44 +0000 UTC Message-ID: <8A53C1DCE6BB4017B85B76DD1CB554EE@gnat> From: "Alan Melia" To: References: <51371E11.6020502@psk31.plus.com> <513746F3.7090508@psk31.plus.com> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 19:03:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130306-0, 06/03/2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "relay1.thorcom.net", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Hi Eddie, we were using line machines for a purpose other than that for which they were designed :-)) The way round this was to have some "special" operating methods which got lost when the ZX80 came along. [...] Content analysis details: (0.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [212.82.99.218 listed in list.dnswl.org] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Scan-Signature: 9b3026b1f8b02ffe2f7d65ee41ac1a6b Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE1A9D.423C2A70" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.4 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mtain-mj03.r1000.mx.aol.com ; domain : btinternet.com DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d7b97513799753a08 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 X-AOL-SPF: domain : blacksheep.org SPF : none This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE1A9D.423C2A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Eddie, we were using line machines for a purpose other than that for = which they were designed :-)) The way round this was to have some = "special" operating methods which got lost when the ZX80 came along.=20 On HF I remember sending RlsRlsR at the begining of an over to ensure = that the receiving machine had not slipped into figure shift due to = noise. On weak signals it was common to insert lots of extra ls. The = standard end of line was CRLFCR to ensure the carriage had time to get = back to the stop, before the text started. Many of the "ZX" ops didnt = send any CR or LF at all because their display wrapped......the Creed = didn't!! The QSO finished as a square black block at the end of the line. All good fun. My mate G3YKB used to be on the LF reflector he was editor of the BARTG = newsletter around 1970. Alan=20 G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: g3zjo=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:38 PM Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY Protocol On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20 That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems) told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below. But it is the other way around. But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender and = receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree. And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest tone =3D = highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is used. Yes yes. BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the mechanical days = did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead = of Letters. This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think = being RY with LetFig set wrong. Eddie 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: Alan Melia=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) with mechanical 'printers, the = highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone) It was independent of = which sideband was used. I think this was also the mode used by the = commercial stations Remember only European lines used bi-polar signalling. The US used a = 20mA mark and no current for space. A mechanical machine of either type = would chatter if the mechanism was not held in Mark. Timing was = mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain character timing = sync. with simple mechanical governors. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Minto Witteveen=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:09 AM Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old days=E2=80=99 = (amateur) RTTY was done with the rig in LSB mode using AFSK? With mark at 2125 Hz and space at 2295 hz and mark being the = idling position, when using LSB the actual transmitted frequencies would = be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)=20 So MTTY seems to assume rig at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6 Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. amateur reversed, = as in AFSK on USB). I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped = around by fldigi because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This = explains why fldigi decodes me (and Stefan) just right. This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the = high tone AND the low(est) frequency. What _is_ the consensus (if any)? 73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse From: g3zjo=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol Graham Just confirmed by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other = Software. Others idle on the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless = the REV is pressed. From Wiki the upper tone used for idle condition (MARK).=20 Another site says You also have to switch the correct phase position (whether the = lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation corresponds to = "Mark" or "space"). Mind you a Ham education site on the subject says. Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out the carrier waves to = allow for the original signals to come through Eddie ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CE1A9D.423C2A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Hi Eddie, we were using line machines = for a purpose=20 other than that for which they were designed :-)) The way = round this=20 was to have some "special" operating methods which got lost when the = ZX80 came=20 along.
 
On HF I remember sending RlsRlsR at the = begining of=20 an over to ensure that the receiving machine had not slipped into figure = shift=20 due to noise. On weak signals it was common to insert lots of extra ls. = The=20 standard end of line was CRLFCR to ensure the carriage had time to get = back to=20 the stop, before the text started. Many of the "ZX" ops didnt send any = CR or LF=20 at all because their display wrapped......the Creed = didn't!!
The QSO finished as a square black = block at the end=20 of the line.
 
All good fun.
My mate G3YKB used to be on the LF = reflector he was=20 editor of the BARTG newsletter around 1970.
 
Alan
G3NYK
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 g3zjo=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 = 1:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: LF: Re: RTTY = Protocol

On 06/03/2013 13:14, Minto Witteveen wrote:=20
That settles it. The info I got (from an untrusworthy source it = seems)=20 told me mark is 2125 and space is 2295. See my original message = below.
But it is the other way around.
 
But it is only independent of the sideband used if both sender = and=20 receiver use the same sideband.... You still have to agree.
And it seems that the current consensus is mark =3D highest = tone =3D=20 highest frequency. So USB if AFSK is = used.
Yes=20 yes.

BTW regarding missing the first character 's. In the = mechanical=20 days did we not send CR/LF first to get things going? I have seen the = software=20 have problems during the recent tests, printing Numbers instead of = Letters.=20 This can be alleviated by sending 46RY first, 46 I think being RY with = LetFig=20 set wrong.

Eddie

 
73=E2=80=99s Minto pa3bca
 
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: Alan Melia
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 13:57
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
From my days on HF RTTY (~1970) = with mechanical=20 'printers, the highest RF frequency was Mark (or idle tone)  It = was=20 independent of which sideband was used. I think this was also the = mode used=20 by the commercial stations
Remember only European lines used = bi-polar=20 signalling. The US used a 20mA mark and no current for space. A = mechanical=20 machine of either type would chatter if the mechanism was not held = in Mark.=20 Timing was mechanical and stop-start was necessary to maintain = character=20 timing sync. with simple mechanical governors.
 
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Minto Witteveen
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, = 2013 11:09=20 AM
Subject: Re: LF: RTTY = Protocol
 

Hmm might this be because =E2=80=98in the old = days=E2=80=99  (amateur) RTTY was done = with the=20 rig in LSB mode using AFSK?
With mark at 2125 Hz and space at = 2295 hz=20 and mark being the idling position, when using LSB the actual = transmitted=20 frequencies would be =E2=80=98swapped=E2=80=99 (reversed)
So = MTTY seems to assume rig=20 at USB, while all (all?) others assume = LSB=E2=80=A6

Still, Stefan and I seem to do RTTY wrong (i.e. = amateur=20 reversed, as in AFSK on USB). =20 I just checked my PIC code and I have mark at high = (DDS_BASE + 85=20 Hz) and space at low (DDS_BASE). This then gets swapped around by = fldigi=20 because I listen (via websdr) in USB=E2=80=A6 This explains why = fldigi decodes me=20 (and Stefan) just right.

This is of course based on the assumption that = =E2=80=98right=E2=80=99 means=20 AFSK on LSB, that the space must be the high tone AND the low(est) = frequency.
What _is_ the consensus (if=20 any)?

73=E2=80=99s Minto = pa3bca

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Ceterum=20 censeo Carthaginem delendam esse
 
From: g3zjo
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 11:44
Subject: LF: RTTY Protocol
 
Graham

Just confirmed=20 by test, MMTTY is backwards compared to all other Software. Others = idle on=20 the high tone MMTTY idles on the low, unless the REV is=20 pressed.


From Wiki
the upper = tone used=20 for idle condition (MARK).

Another site=20 says
You also have to switch the correct phase position = (whether=20 the lower or higher frequency carrier in frequency modulation = corresponds=20 to "Mark" or "space").

Mind you a Ham education site = on the=20 subject says.
Remember that bfo=E2=80=99s help filter out = the carrier waves=20 to allow for the original signals to come=20 through

Eddie


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