Return-Path: Received: from mtain-mk02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtain-mk02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.97.134]) by air-db02.mail.aol.com (v129.4) with ESMTP id MAILINDB023-86444d345079320; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:21:45 -0500 Received: from post.thorcom.com (post.thorcom.com [195.171.43.25]) by mtain-mk02.r1000.mx.aol.com (Internet Inbound) with ESMTP id 2C383380000B7; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordom by post.thorcom.com with local (Exim 4.14) id 1PepwY-0003VV-Nn for rs_out_1@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:20:26 +0000 Received: from [195.171.43.32] (helo=relay1.thorcom.net) by post.thorcom.com with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1PepwX-0003VM-Pe for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:20:25 +0000 Received: from nm3-vm0.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.183.228]) by relay1.thorcom.net with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1PepwX-0002RF-Mh for rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:20:25 +0000 Received: from [217.146.183.217] by nm3.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2011 14:20:19 -0000 Received: from [217.146.183.32] by tm10.bullet.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2011 14:20:19 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1021.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2011 14:20:19 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 20245.97770.bm@omp1021.mail.ukl.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 52860 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Jan 2011 14:20:18 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.co.uk; s=s1024; t=1295274018; bh=qC93ns/b2+ok7osgGcOBenKKlnS9KfUVP6rO5ozNspo=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mRvBDvdFdjoYpIk2wF738ikPFmE4uO/bREA9fG2fdzU7QeVgUe1ueyBZ8nkNE3TaCfiu98Pnp5PlI9r3qMZAFmazP+gf/LxZaTdCXvyQlREsCWDK6b5PMf2dfgYASISV89xu8oFqlZLTerG3iEMjE4HvJFZLW1GfcgReRV1Cbdo= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.co.uk; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nd6mW7YosXXfToBq3dd+wGFffNBd3aSBvK34Kbk0uhqdV8S7KJArx7NHuSMmqA11gZwMpu5cbG1PY1huKNRrxnXIiEequVzUmAg/MN6jEsAb9+hyOsqNKgRgvL2ZLlfXx2siArLpDemv6Iloajsk2EsuRWJZZJvNneLtuPSw1g0=; Message-ID: <808947.52103.qm@web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: G7rXBMIVM1m_nfWkW8Pmoq36NyfjnOIn4ncSAsXaYjQHxJG rSGIBco1QVTjz2XARanN5g0S0e66JqDRwh33igcCz.wc5SNGHO3.zwY4t_dg ApSh7nuNoN6VPaNZQCKmqXB70bPvUUhEyGcUVlMk0kkCVI7If0HyNMh6A9X_ oNhY8r2yWRMu8ce6C66_7SnJpEBHdojvk7QXLuA0uWdARtMX1FGOZPJ.eJTO bMdc4T9N_RUQ1vEfbZURjT3vtVZVhOjMN8.lunITeVoyie3e3ZLONGfO5Zq5 73ptfib1m6DG8CSs74zKP3cCP25UEATUr.8MsxA-- Received: from [86.139.92.141] by web28106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:20:18 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/555 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <532_1295255087_4D34062F_532_53074_1_92F6B0CB5F307544B1F54305F95265ABD12FA1@API.clb.tcfr.thales> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 14:20:18 +0000 (GMT) From: M0FMT To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org In-Reply-To: <532_1295255087_4D34062F_532_53074_1_92F6B0CB5F307544B1F54305F95265ABD12FA1@API.clb.tcfr.thales> MIME-Version: 1.0 DomainKey-Status: good (testing) Subject: Re: LF: RE: Re: What has VLF to do with Toads & Earth Quakes ? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-926398322-1295274018=:52103" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on post.thorcom.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.9 required=5.0 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes Sender: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org X-Listname: rsgb_lf_group X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: rs_out_1@blacksheep.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: mail_rly_antispam_dkim-d025.1 ; domain : yahoo.co.uk DKIM : pass x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d61864d3450776409 X-AOL-IP: 195.171.43.25 --0-926398322-1295274018=:52103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alan, Hugh, Jean-Louis and LF=E3=80=80 I am glad you all read this in the spirit in which it was posted. I found it by accident when searching GBS/Z. My motives for posting were, humour, relevance, intrigue, and a possible= way in=20 which LF/VLF enthusiasts could contribute to the research.=20 This long standing conundrum, if solved would undoubtedly save literally= =20 millions of lives over time as Alan said. Frogs aside, one thing occurred to me was that in the build up to an EQ th= e=20 mantles bedrock must be subject to incredible stress over a long period of= time=20 before something gives. These are massive rocks and are kms long, through= the=20 crust. I know stress in steel and other materials results in a phenomenon= called=20 the magnetostrictive effect which is used, I believe, in strain gauging,= =20 ultrasound transducers and the like. So how much is the earth=E2=80=99s ma= gnetic field=20 distorted by this pre EQ stress in the bedrock and how subtle is it and is= it=20 detectible with sufficient precision to be useful and would VLF play a par= t?=20 The original paper was I think taking a typical OU approach to this scienc= e by=20 not accepting boundaries between the branches of science. However for crea= tures=20 to be considered as an EQ detector like the Canary in a mine is I say; sco= re one=20 for the toads! Some possible further reading on my take on EQ magnetic effects ;-But it= =E2=80=99s all=20 getting too deep for me. =C2=A0http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~planets/louzada/pubs/PhD%20Dissertation%= 20Louzada%2005-22-09.pdfhttp://www.geol.umd.edu/~rudnick/Webpage/Rudnick_G= ao_Treatise.pdfhttp://www.swri.org/3pubs/brochure/d17/magneto/magneto.htm7= 3 es GL petefmt=20 ________________________________ From: "Jean-Louis.RAULT@fr.thalesgroup.com"=20 To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Sent: Mon, 17 January, 2011 9:04:40 Subject: LF: RE: Re: What has VLF to do with Toads & Earth Quakes ? Hugh =C2=A0 One of the purposes of the french satellite DEMETER is to study any VLF=20 perturbations potentially linked to earthquakes; =C2=A0 See for example http://www.geodin.ro/EMSEV/scientific%20program.html =C2=A0 Asking "demeter earthquakes pdf" to Google will bring you many observation= s and=20 theories on that subject =C2=A0 73 de Jean-Louis F6AGR ________________________________ From: owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org=20 [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org] On Behalf Of Hugh M0WYE Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 4:22 PM To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org Subject: LF: Re: What has VLF to do with Toads & Earth Quakes ? Dear Bufo Bufo and group, >There are indeed some strange scientific papers about.=20 >=C2=A0 >It seems to me that it would be best to study links between VLF propagati= on and=20 >earthquakes, and between VLF propagation and toad breeding patterns seper= ately.=20 >But the author is clearly interested in any ability to predict earthquake= s found=20 >in animals. >I had not heard of any=C2=A0effect of=C2=A0earthquakes on VLF before, alt= hough it is true=20 >that there are many factors which affect the ionosphere.=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 >The suggestion is not that the earthquake emits a VLF signal, rather that= it=20 >disturbs the ionosphere, so that VLF signals are no longer reflected acro= ss the=20 >"sky". The main things which affect the ionosphere are solar radiation,= the=20 >solar wind and the earth's magnetic field. >Of these, the magnetic field seems the strongest contender, I wonder if= there=20 >are any magnetometer records for the area being studied=C2=A0at the time= of=C2=A0the=20 >quake? >73 >Hugh M0WYE >=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =20 --0-926398322-1295274018=:52103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Alan, Hugh, Jean-Louis= and LF

=E3=80=80

I am glad you all read this in the spirit in which it was posted.

I found it by accident when searching GBS/Z.

My motives for posting were, humour, relevance, intrigue, and a possibl= e way in which LF/VLF enthusiasts could contribute to the research.

This long standing conundrum, if solved would undoubtedly save literall= y millions of lives over time as Alan said.

Frogs aside, one thing occurred to me was that in the build up to an EQ= the mantles bedrock must be subject to incredible stress over a long peri= od of time before something gives. These are massive rocks and are kms lon= g, through the crust. I know stress in steel and other materials results= in a phenomenon called the magnetostrictive effect which is used, I belie= ve, in strain gauging, ultrasound transducers and the like. So how much is= the earth=E2=80=99s magnetic field distorted by this pre EQ stress in the= bedrock and how subtle is it and is it detectible with sufficient precisi= on to be useful and would VLF play a part?

The original paper was I think taking a typical OU approach to this sci= ence by not accepting boundaries between the branches of science. However= for creatures to be considered as an EQ detector like the Canary in a min= e is I say; score one for the toads!

Some possible further reading on my take on EQ magnetic effects ;-

<= /FONT>

http://www.swri.org/3pubs/brochure/d17/= magneto/magneto.htm

http://www.geol.umd.edu/~rudnick= /Webpage/Rudnick_Gao_Treatise.pdf

http= ://www.fas.harvard.edu/~planets/louzada/pubs/PhD%20Dissertation%20Louzada%= 2005-22-09.pdf

But it=E2=80=99s all getting too deep for me.


&nbs= p;
73 es GL petefmt=20


From: "Jean-Louis.RAULT@fr= .thalesgroup.com" <Jean-Louis.RAULT@fr.thalesgroup.com>
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.orgSent: Mon, 17 January,= 2011 9:04:40
Subject:= LF: RE: Re: What has VLF to do with Toads & Earth Quakes ?
=
Hugh
 
One of the purposes of the french satellite= DEMETER is to study any VLF perturbations potentially linked to earthquak= es;
 
 
Asking "demeter earthquakes pdf" to Google= will bring you many observations and theories on that subject
 
73 de Jean-Louis F6AGR
From: owne= r-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org [mailto:owner-rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org]= On Behalf Of Hugh M0WYE
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011= 4:22 PM
To: rsgb_lf_group@blacksheep.org
Subject: LF:= Re: What has VLF to do with Toads & Earth Quakes ?

Dear Bufo Bufo and group,
There are indeed some strange scientific= papers about.
 
It seems to me that it would be best to= study links between VLF propagation and earthquakes, and between VLF prop= agation and toad breeding patterns seperately. But the author is clearly= interested in any ability to predict earthquakes found in animals.=
I had not heard of any effect of&nbs= p;earthquakes on VLF before, although it is true that there are many facto= rs which affect the ionosphere. 
 
The suggestion is not that the earthquake= emits a VLF signal, rather that it disturbs the ionosphere, so that VLF= signals are no longer reflected across the "sky". The main things which= affect the ionosphere are solar radiation, the solar wind and the earth's= magnetic field.
Of these, the magnetic field seems the st= rongest contender, I wonder if there are any magnetometer records for the= area being studied at the time of the quake?
73
Hugh M0WYE
 
 

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